paint advice!

[nwymbs]

Hi all -

I'm getting ready to bring my Giulia back to it's original Graphite Grey and would really like some advice before I plunk down the cash. First, I guess it's important to mention that I'm not looking for show quality paint here, but rather something that will satisfy me until I finish graduate school. Plus, the car right now has some really bad faded and cracked red lacquer paint! I found a bodyshop down in Oxnard, CA that comes as a recommendation. They quoted $2000 for paint, blocking, color sand, and light body repair (weld some mirror holes, fix a gouge in the door). Does this sound reasonable? What paint should I tell them to get? Is it possible to order paint based on the old Ditzler code? I talked with another body guy who said that most likely would happen is they would do a color match rather than source the old code, as the old stuff contains lead. Is this really the case, or is the exact match obtainable? In the process of stripping the trim, I've come across two other layers of paint: pale yellow, and dark blue metallic. My original intention was to use paint stripper on the car and get it down to bare metal. I was told this would not be a good idea because the stripper could leave a residue, especially in the nooks and crannies making it hard for the paint to settle. Sound right? If true, how much sanding should I make sure they do? I'm thinking down to the original grey. Lastly, is there anything I should look out for/mention to the body shop before sealing the deal?

Thanks
Nick

[pathung]

Hi Nick,

$2K sounds reasonable for the work promised.

Color matching is the easiest thing to do (peel off a morsel to match from your original paint, under the dash, or inside trunk perhaps).

I've also been cautioned about the paint stripper for the same reason, so I blasted my car.

Lastly, have them take photos EVERY step of the way, to keep them honest.

Good luck!

[divotandtralee]

There are different schools on how best to prep a car and paint it. I agree with Pat on the residue point yet I used it on my car at the direction of the body man on a Sprint. If you do only the skin (as I did) where there are no seams and DA the edges you will be fine. The stuff is water soluable. Some paints can handle going over the original finish. I painted my '57 Spider in '83
without stripping it and it still has a great finish using Dupont Centauri, but it did not have any multi layers on it. It was original factory paint.

It sounds like it is time to strip yours.

The other school is blasting. There are many medias to deal with and levels of expertise here and the nooks and crannies can bite you here too when your painter aims his paint gun on a dark place and poof a cloud of media comes out raining a paint job.

Best advice is to lean on the painter---He selects HIS paint, your color, HIS prep and it's HIS responsibility if it goes south. Get more than one professional quote and opinion even if you think you have made up your mind who to use. Rick

[alfabits]

I have a friend who many years ago media blasted his entire Giulia and today still has little pellets flying around while driving at speed. My Giulietta was stripped to bare metal with paint strippers (in about '87) then sat in primer for many years. It has no ill effects. Please note two things. One, if you have cracking lacquer then it will all have to come off! Otherwise it will continue to be a problem. Second, most painters I know won't guarantee a paint job that hasn't been down to bare metal. $2000 seems cheap for what they said they would do. My car (originally repainted black 12 ? years before I purchased it, sat that way (a repainted rolling chassis) until I purchased it. I then had some minor repairs done, completely block sanded, painted, then color sanded and polished. My cost was about $3000. In my case I had a very rust free body, and excellent body work done before I bought the car. If the car is stripped to bard metal and had some bodywork - they all need some - then expect to pay $6000, $8000 or more for a good paint job. If you spend $2000 on a poorly prepped foundation you will just be throwing your money away and will need to re-spend it later. It's a lot of work to repaint a car properly and unfortunately very expensive. Look for an small independent shop and get references. Then call them and look at the job they received. AND, get everything in writing! It doesn't have to be concourse, but it should be done right.

Good luck.

[lowmileage]

I can't see how they will do all they say for 2 grand. Paint and supplies alone are gunna cost a grand. The actual paint job is the easy part - prep takes 10x longer (at least). Paint nowadays is VERY expensive. It's not unusual for hues like red to cost $500 (or more) a gallon. There are 2nd line of paints from the majors (Dupont, PPG, Sherwin Williams) that is cheaper and depending upon who you listen to, either good or bad. Yea, paint stripper can get you in trouble but on a metal car, but shouldn't be an issue if properly neutralized. I'm doing a Corvette resto and stripper is very frowned upon cause it gets absorbed into the fiberglass . I'm taking the old paint and primer off with razor blades. No way will I have bleed thru problems. Needless to say, stripper not properly done will really *uck up the paint - maybe not right away, but it will eventially come thru. As a side note, this is the only stripper I can recommend

Photo Sharing!

[pathung]

$2K DOES seem a bit low...

[lowmileage]

One other thing - while you could recommend what kind of paint (single stage, BC/CC, urethane etc) I've found most paint shops favor their own recipe for what to use and how to apply it. If you have to tell a paint shop what to use and how to do it, better find another shop. You could of course suggest to a shop what you prefer and see what their comment and/or recommendation would be.

[Andrew Schank]

Wow where should I start. When you strip an old Spider to bare metal, it is going to take at least 60 to 100 hours of body work to make it the right shape again. Those bodies were hand formed and the lines were all put in after the fact before the paint when on at the factory. Nobody makes cars like that anymore, and what it means is they used a lot of lead and heavy primer to put the finished shape on the car with a lot of hand work. When you have strip it all down to bare metal, you will then have to fix every ding, dent, and rusted area the car ever got, plus redo the factory original coachwork finish work. the quote they gave you is absurd unless they have somebody who does great bodywork for 1/10 or the going rate. My guess is that they are not familiar with the car = a disaster waiting to happen. They will either do a pitiful job, or will realize after a few days they bombed the estimate, and demand more money to finish the car. I hear of this happening on many occasions.

Quality paint supplies will run close to $1000. That leaves $1000 for the labor, and its going to take at least 80 hours even if someone is a whiz at those cars. The math don't add up. That's a $5000 job even for a driver quality job. Show quality isn't the issue, you still have to do all the steps since the car is starting at zero.

Don't mean to be in your face, just trying to save you a potential nightmare. if you don't have to budget right now to do the car right, i suggest you wait until you do.

[gh356]

Lots of good advice. The bottom line is that a cheesy low budget paint job now will probably cost you more in a few years when you want to do it right. On the topic of stripping, you might look into soda blasting. Apperently it eliminates the problems of chemical stripping and also the risk of warping and hardening the body panels associated with regular blasting (never use sand on an Alfa body). Some people hand strip the body themselves, (a nasty job, but easy to do if you have the time) and then have it very lightly media plasted for the final clean up before paint prep. Keep in mind, you may find lots more bondo than you were otherwise expecting, no matter which method you choose. Best of luck. The world needs more non-red Alfas!

PS my Giulia Spider is red.

[Andrew Schank]

what gets me is these shops come up with some lo ball number, and haven't even seen how much body work they will be getting into after the car is stripped. If you ask them their hourly rate, you'll get some funny answer.

There is also a lot of time involved in fitting all the panels, grilles. light assemblies etc. 750/101 cars are not cake walk body and paint jobs. skip these steps, and car look awful after its put back together and/or nothing fits right.

The bad economy has made this type of situation worse, as some shops are dying for work and will low bid anything that comes in the door. Then they will have no choice but to cut corners like mad, or complain to you the car had tons of hidden issues, and raise the price by a large margin.

By the way, one of the better soda blasters is in Oxnard, and I have seen first hand their work. Its not cheap to have it done though.

Anacapa Soda Blasting | Home

[nwymbs]

Whew, thanks for all the feedback this was just what I needed to hear.

I've gone around SB and pretty much all the other shops have quoted 5K which from what has been said, seems realistic. So now I'm of course concerned with the low-ball estimate I received and called the shop and first asked about the paint. It's PPG so good stuff, so not really saving money there....how can they do the job then? I then mention that there's 4 coats of paint and that it all needs to come off which they said they weren't willing to do under the original estimate and were simply planning on removing what it took to 'make the car look good'. Removing all the paint would result in an open-ended estimate. Huh. I'm not one to cut corners, and don't want to redo something that costs lotsa money and time, in a few years. So that's a no go. I've since decided on another guy in town that's already familiar with my car, has a clean shop, and knows alfas. He's told me in the 5K ballpark but that I have to pull some weight as far as stripping the car which is no biggie for me.

Would soda stripping be worth it? Or should I stick with sanding?

[aralfa8589]

Any media blasting, including soda is only good for a serious bare bones restoration. In such cases soda blasting may be the best. Plain old sanding may be a good option in your case. You can end up with an excellent paint job, but it will be driver quality.

[Gordon Raymond]

What is your intended final result? Do you want "factory fresh", "show car trailer queen" or a very nice street paint job? This decision is yours and the result is your choice. If you want the best of "factory fresh" or the like, you need to disassemble the entire car to the body shell and begin there as Pat Hung and others have done. To have this done by outside sources, is very labor intensive and costly. Patrick did a great deal of his own labor. If you are going this route, I prefer soda blasting, or dry ice blasting, as little residue remains trapped in nooks and crannies. That said, Skip McCabe, who has done many Pebble Beach Ferrari's, uses an ammonia based chemical stripper and LOTS of hand labor. This strip is excellent IF THE CAR IS NOT DISASSEMBLED as it will not lurk in nooks and crannies and cleans up with water, like soda blasting.
Any bare metal repaint is preferable to any paint over what's there, as even taken down to apparent "solid" paint, one has no idea how long that "solid" paint will remain as such. A partial bare metal repaint will outlast a paint over, even with todays best sealers, if done properly.
As far as cost, IF anything is taken to bare metal, flaws WILL appear that need to be addressed. Time spent is always costly. This is the reason everyone thus far has suggested the job MUST be done right, or the money is not well spent.
Skip McCabe did a Sprint Speciale two years ago, with the whole body shell taken to bare metal, properly filled, problems addressed, and painted. NO DIS or RE ASSEMBLY of the finished car. The bill was just shy of $8000. This is, however, a better than factory job, with all material removal done by hand, with the ammonia stripper. This car has sat for two years now, unassembled in the owners garage, and the paint looks as if it was completed yesterday. This is top quality preparation, with top quality paint. The job we all wish for. The REASON the car is not together is because is cost the owner so much to do the job properly, he must catch his breath and recoup his finances!
Now, remember, this is not a "new" car you will be working on. A "bodyshop" may or may not be up to the necessary restoration required. Look around for an automotive RESTORATION shop that does old cars, and is nearby, so you can physically check in on the work done. Check on other customers cars that have been painted there, particularly cars 30 or 40 years old!
I can go on and on with this but I believe all my readers get the idea, as all that have contributed share like thoughts and opinions. BTW, this is just my opinion, and I hope it is helpful!

[pathung]

A cheaper and perhaps wiser alternative would be to just hold off for a few years (till after you graduate) and then do a full restoration - this means stripping the car down to bare metal and start from scratch.

[lowmileage]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pathung A cheaper and perhaps wiser alternative would be to just hold off for a few years (till after you graduate) and then do a full restoration - this means stripping the car down to bare metal and start from scratch.