Giulietta survey

[davisfamily]

I am conducting a survey.

If your Giulietta Sprint had not run in over 30 years, and you want it to work, would you:
(A) tackle the engine and try to get it to run, or
(B) attempt to make the braking system functional.

Matt, this is so I can get that airplane...prioritizing and listing!
Thanks for your participation in my mission.

[phila3885]

If you plan on really driving the car I wouldn't hesitate on bringing the whole breaking system up to like-new condition. It is money well spent.

Phil

[intune]

A: Yes, B: Yes. I think you need to do both before either one matters. No good running if it won't stop; no point stopping if it won't run.

[alfazagato]

Just a moment. your question presuppose a sound shell.....and with respect, the photographs of your car appear to show lots of work needed simply to make the shell rigid and square. By all means ask for other's advice but please before you do anything else, get the shell repaired and ready. Your engine, no matter how well rebuilt will not operate without a good electrical system either.
And if you decide not to follow this advice and still want an aeroplane and Matt's is not available...I have one for sale.

[davisfamily]

I am looking for things to do. The shell of the car is OK, except for the hood and trunk. I never said driving, just working. Not looking good, just working. The engine and the brakes are two areas that have probably suffered the most during "storage," so I am looking to start the process in one of those two areas.
As far as the wiring goes, Once I get the engine firing or running, and all the existing wiring for that, I can think about purchasing Lionel's harness.
Actually, with a good cleaning and mounting all the parts I have in my barn, the car won't be THAT bad (in my mind). What would any car look like after not being washed or vacuumed for that long?
There is rust in the trunk floor and passenger rear rocker, but most of the other rust is non-cancerous surface type. What other types of rigidity problems should I be looking for? On to the shell, what types of work do you have in mind to get it "repaired and ready?" Cutting, welding, priming, painting?
I am beginning to think that my questions are sounding like I am looking to take this car to my dad's house next month and wish to have it running in a couple of months. I AM NOT being unrealistic about the money or time involved in making the car live/work/run/drive. I know these things take time and money. I want to know what I should start working on first.
Please keep the advice coming!

[alfazagato]

In my experience the first thing that has to be done is to mount the body on a level frame or surface and check the geometry. In a monocoque structure everything depends on everything else and I would really urge you to look at the sills, particularly the inner ones and the bases of the A posts. If, after a drop test the body is within 2-3mm in all long diagonals and level across the front pick-up points...good ....but if its not then you need to do reparative work NOW. No I am not talking about a paint finish but structural metal work and a coat of primer.
I seem to recall that you were requesting images of the area beneath the rear seats on a Confortavole as yours had rusted. This is typical so I repeat before you do anything check the structure of the body thoroughly. I have gone through this process five or six times to date and, believe me, there is no shortcut.

[divotandtralee]

I agree with Stuart. Rebuilt motors and transmissions and brakes are something you do toward the end of a project. Brakes are just about the last operating system I do since they are prone to attract moisture and hence corrosion even as you eat breakfast. Six months of non-use isn't real good on them even if they had been freshly rebuilt. Engines are ok if you must and turn it over by hand occasionally, but really, it could end up driving a saw mill waiting to mate up with the body. Just sort of a half assed job on the body is going to be $25000 and quite frankly if I was looking for a car of the vintage and i saw it in a yard for sale, I would accelerate as I went by -interior $5000--motor $3000--Chrome $4000---Carbs $3000--them $10000 for all the other stuff I haven't mentioned and 5 years of effort.....without losing focus... You are IMO stricken by a heart string attachment that is so strong it over rides good decision making. I knew a guy in Chicago that had a similar infatuation with a Sprint. After 10 years, he had detailed the front suspension including plating the nuts and bolts and rebuilt the moving parts with NOS parts. That's as far as he ever got. After he realized his veture was more than he could do he sold me all the stuff for pennies on the dollar.

[davisfamily]

Thanks for your input.

[Andrew]

I just did this on my 750 Berlina (hadn't run since 70s). Determined first that engine ran, then fixed clutch, then fixed brakes, rebuilding whole system. After some miles realized engine needing rebuilding, so then I did that. But I would always get it running and shifting first, then braking second.

Andrew

[davisfamily]

Stuart,
So just like I would square up a door jamb or window frame, or lay out flooring so it is square to the longest wall in a room?
Can you suggest the best pick up points to measure the diagonals at? I'm thinking an 'X' across the engine compartment, maybe suspension points on the front frame, upper door area to lower door area, across the floor pan from door end to door end, same in the back tray area, front sill to rear sill 'X' pattern, and maybe frame rail to frame rail in the rear. I am very familiar with this process, so suggest the points and I can check squareness. When you say drop test, are you referring to dropping a plumb bob from a point at the top of the A-pillar on both sides and checking to make sure that the corresponding point at the sill is the same distance back from the door jamb below the A-pillar? The same could be done with the B-pillar too, right?
BTW, the rear seat area wasn't rusted, there is just a rat's nest back there, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't some sort of sound-deadening material, but it is definitely not! The worst part of the interior is the headliner. The rest is all there, just dusty and dirty.
Andrew,
I have followed the Berlina process since page 1. I am more inclined to having a similar experience. Little by little, it CAN get done. Don't lose the forest because of the trees?

[evannice]

Hi Dan,

I have always found that my motivation to continue is helped tremendously if I get the motor to run. It seems like a "living" car then, even if it does not drive. Otherwise it seems like a "dead" car and it is harder to get interested in the grunt work.

[alfazagato]

There is, within the workshop manual, a diagram of the diagonals and dimensions (for a Berlinetta if I recall) but this will assist in no small measure. I lift the car off its wheels on a smooth clean level floor and level with a 1.2M level (side to side) the underside of the front chassis legs or run bars through the suspension pick-up holes and level them. Fix the car on axle stands with shims if necessary in a level position. I then level the undersides of the sills front to back(chassis external rails) and fix on axle stands. Finally the radius bar pick up points (side to side again with a bar through the holes). When all that is as level as possible, with a plumb-bob and masking tape on the floor, drop verticals to the floor. mark with crosses the point of the bob and then measure between them on the longest diagonals which obviously show up the greatest discrepancies. Work your way round the car using diagonals wherever possible to establish all is square and sound. Similarly with the superstructure but clearly doors on the early cars were not identical and thus apertures can be different. Check, by diagonals the screen aperture if it is out too.
Best of luck

[Andrew]

On these kinds of projects you have to take the long view. A major project can drive you nuts if you let it. I have no overall plan and no deadlines on the Berlina; I get to it as I feel like it. It doesn't worry me and I'm happy with my pace and progress. That works for me.

For others, a detailed plan and schedule might work better, but you've got to be flexible because everything takes longer and costs more than you think. I ended up spending $3000 in parts and machining on the 750 engine, a heck of a lot more than I expected, and it took 3.5 months, also more than I figured. But working with a busy machine shop and getting parts from all over the country and world means delays will happen.

I am not one for tearing down the whole car at once and building it up from a shell. I don't think I could see my way through that kind of project; I'm more of a running rustoration kinda person. But others have no problem stripping down to a shell and building up the whole car. You have to figure out what works for you depending on your experience, skills, space, and resources. A car disassembled takes up 3-4 times as much space as it does assembled. Plus you have to keep track of where/how every nut, bolt, wire, and component goes back on. It's a big job.

Andrew

[alfazagato]

Indeed it does take longer and costs more and that why you start with the biggest, most difficult element and get that sorted out first of all. Its all downhill then.....Houses built on sand...that sort of thing!

[davisfamily]

Stuart,
What is the next step if the car is not square? A frame shop? AFAIK the car has never seen any kind of accident, could just sitting make it turn sour?
I guess you are thinking of the biggest, most difficult element as the squareness of the overall car? What would you rank next?