Milano Brembos on a spider

[jburning17]

Hi All,

I have this idea in my head, and I am determined to get it to work....Milano Brembos on a Giulietta spider.

I know, I know....no Giuliettas will be harmed in the making of this project. Dolphin safe, too.

I was able to source a set of 101 Giullia caliper brackets, disks, and backing plates. No Calipers. But, who wants to use those anvils anyway?

The Milano Brembos are the way that I want to go. Light, cheap, same piston diameter as the 2 Liter Ate's that the Centerline kit uses, and serving as doorstops all over the place. I have a set already, with a set of stainless calipers ready to be installed.

The trouble is that the bolt spacing on the Girlings is 3.5", while the bolt spacing on the Brembos is 3.0". So, the 101 Girling caliper brackets won't work without modification, and I can't bring myself to cut into them.

I downloaded a free trial verson of a CAD package and went to work. I first took a caliper to the original brackets and recreated them in the CAD program. Next step was to take measurements of the Brembo calipers and how they sit in relation to the disk setup. Then I made the needed modifications to the 101 CAD design.

See some pictures below. I will also include a PDF file that allows you to spin the part around. I think that is pretty cool, even if it doesn't really serve a purpose.

What I need is somebody who can make these parts (left and right version) without charging me $17,500.

What do you think, guys? Can it be done? Who can make these for me?

Cheers,
Jon

(now donning asbestos suit to protect against flamethrowers)

[Alfajay]

Whoa, that "spin around" feature on Adobe is way cool.

I don't know of a fabricator who can make your brackets - hope you are successful in finding one. In addition to the hole spacing (3" vs 3.5") are you confident that your bracket will position the caliper properly in the "in and out" direction? That is, when the Milano calipers are bolted to your bracket will the two pads be centered on the disk?

And, what sort of a disk do you plan to use? The original Giulia disks, ATE disks & hubs from a 115 (which will bolt right on), or something vented?

You will probably need to install a booster to make pedal pressure reasonable. A fluid-fluid booster, like the one used on 105's, should work OK. You may need a pressure limiting valve in the rear circuit as well.

Let us know how this project turns out.

[jburning17]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfajay In addition to the hole spacing (3" vs 3.5") are you confident that your bracket will position the caliper properly in the "in and out" direction? That is, when the Milano calipers are bolted to your bracket will the two pads be centered on the disk?

[jburning17]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfajay And, what sort of a disk do you plan to use? The original Giulia disks, ATE disks & hubs from a 115 (which will bolt right on), or something vented?

[Gordon Raymond]

Jon, I can make one for $8,750.00, right hand only. My friend RJ will make the left hand one for $8,745.00 if that's Ok?
Ours won't spin though.
My friend Jay can make 'em spin!

[jburning17]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Raymond Jon, I can make one for $8,750.00, right hand only. My friend RJ will make the left hand one for $8,745.00 if that's Ok? Ours won't spin though. My friend Jay can make 'em spin!

[Gordon Raymond]

Darn! You figured it out!

[jburning17]

Alright, I am ready to give a bit of an update on this.

I pursued several leads on getting the brackets cut on a CNC mill. As it turned out, that is way more expensive that this project is worth. So, on to plan B. In my case, this was more like Plan K, but you get the idea. I hit on an idea that would have me spending less of my dollars and more of my time.

The thickness of the ring portion of the brackets is 0.248-9". Yup, 1/4". Funny how often metric stuff ends up being so close to an even English unit. Cold-rolled plate would work very nicely for this.

What I really needed was a way to locate the holes, and to secure the calipers. I used transfer punches to locate the holes and welded on a nut (M12x1.5) to hold the calipers.

I worked up a template by simply using Microsoft Word and the drawing tools combined with all the measurements that I had taken. I then printed it out, made sure the printer didn't stretch the drawing and then glued it to the piece of 1/4" plate. I think that I paid about $8 per plate including the labor to cut them. This shop is considered overprice, too.

I then used a hacksaw ( ) to cut them out. I don't have a bandsaw, so here is where the extra labor comes in. It wasn't too bad actually. I was able to get good pressure on the blade by using a hand on each end of the hacksaw. I would guess that it took about 30 minutes each, including breaks, to get through it.

You will notice in the pictures that I cut through the ring to get the inside removed. I later welded up the cut and ground it down. I actually only did this on the first one. I figured that it would be less labor to drill a big hole and assemble the hacksaw inside, so that is what I did on the second one.

Time for some pictures, then on with the update...

[Subtle]

With success, this project would recommend membership in SNO.

[jburning17]

The next step was to begin to adjust and fit the caliper. This required some work with the grinder and with a stone mounted in a die grinder. I ended up with grindings everywhere; the bench, the floor, in boxes, my hair, my teeth. Oh well, you gotta do what you gotta do.

I drilled out all the holes, of course, but I deliberately made them a touch oversize. I am doing this by hand, after all. It really shouldn't be a problem, IMHO.

I actually had a set of the original brackets to use with transfer punches, but I don't think that is necessary. If I didn't have them, I would get the hole on the inside of the ring all set first. Then I would mark the plate by clamping it to the spindle and then using the holes on the spindle to mark where the holes should go. Easy enough.

With the plate set, I began to fuss with the caliper location. Once I had it where I wanted it, I tack welded a nut on the back of the plate. This is actually quite a trick. A normal sized nut is too tall, and so I had to grind one down to about 2/3 the normal height. I then had to use a needle nose vice-grip to hold is while I threaded the bolt. Splatter is also an issue since the actual disk surface is right there. I cut up a tin can and covered the disk in that area with a piece of it. It worked like a charm.

Getting the caliper location right will take some doing. I struggled with this and never did get it perfect. If you get it too high, meaning further away from the axis of rotation, then the pads might be able to overhang the disk. This is very bad. Richard Jemison (Alfar7) has rightly warned against this on this board and the yahoo board. The problem is that if the pad wears down enough, the portions of the pad that overhang the disk (and don't wear) can touch. In this case you will instantly have zero brakes, which will likely ruin your day.

I made the opposite mistake in that I had the calipers too close to the axis. The disks are cast iron, so the hat isn't perfectly round. I didn't check this well enough, so the caliper ended up dragging for part of the rotation. I had already assembled and disassembled that hub so many times that I just couldn't take it anymore. I was also in no mood to hacksaw another bracket just to get another 1mm of clearance. So, I took that caliper over to the bench grinder and removed the offending 1mm. Eat that, Caliper!! Now it works! Ok, that isn't the right way to do it, I know. I have tried to adjust the template to account for all this though.

In the last picture, I have tried to show that next hitch that I had to deal with. The brake line location is not the same as it would be on the Girling calipers. Actually, with these Brembo's it turns out to be in a pretty bad spot.....right in front of one of the mounting bolts. I solved this by getting a new bolt and cutting it to the right size and using one nut rather than the normal nut + jam nut.

More to come...

[jburning17]

This first picture here shows how I held things in place while I tack-welded the nut on the plate. The screw drivers held a gap between the edge of the disk and the caliper. We don't want any dragging there, either!

The second picture shows the bracket mounted with the nuts welded on. I have a crappy flux core welder, but it is more than up to the task for this sort of thing.

After welding, I used the wire brush disk on my bench grinder and brushed the heck out of it, then zinc plated it with the Eastwood kit.

I saved the short brake line from the Milano that I scavenged these calipers from, and I hoped to reuse it. It did have the right end fittings, but was the wrong shape. I read the stern warning on the Centerline installation instructions for their disk conversion kit, "Thou shalt not ever, ever let the brake line touch anything or vibrate against anything!" With the fear of God in me, I very carefully fussed the brake line into a usable shape, no kinks.

Take a look...

[jburning17]

Another thing that I forgot to mention was that the bracket that holds the soft-line to hard-line junction will not work in its original location. It normally mounts on the rear two bolts. I moved it to the front two bolts. The geometry is not quite the same, but it works if you sandwich the bracket between two nuts on the bottom bolt. I also had to use a longer bolt than stock here to do that. You should be able to see what I am talking about in one of these pictures.

One thing that I need still is a set of brake pad spring things from a set of 2liter Ate calipers. I am trying not to order a set of pins and springs for $23, or something, plus getting ripped off for shipping, only to throw away the pins. Particularly when I know that there has got to be tons of those things sitting around in peoples' jam jars doing nothing. Anybody want to help the cause?

Until then, I still need to do a bit of suspension work on the rest of the car, so I haven't bled the brakes yet. I realize that I may need to put a 115 rear brake bias valve thing on. I am also figuring that I may end up rebuilding the MC, too, before I get this whole thing settled. That's life, I guess.

I will throw in a picture of the final assembly, plus another with the wheel mounted. It gives the wheels a darker appearance when you can't see the aluminum drums through the holes IMO. Doesn't bother me, and I suspect that most people wouldn't notice.

Do you think that I should post the template that I used?

Jon

[Gordon Raymond]

Paint the Brembo's silver. Then come hacksaw for me.

[jburning17]

Just a bit of an update since I have had limited time to work on the car this spring....and I was doing an entire brake and suspension upgrade....

Well, I finally got the entire thing together and it is terrific....read on...

I had read about people needing to install a proportioning valve in the back when disks are installed. I was suffering a bit from project burnout, and I was really dreading the idea of taking things apart a second time. So, I simply got a proportioning valve from the get-go as a sort of preemptive strike.

Easier said than done. Now I had to get all the correct brake line adapters and I couldn't even figure out what kind of fittings these cars used. I ended up getting a custom hose made for the back and making a custom fitting myself on my lathe. I will put in a couple of pictures for the curious.

About the time that I was finishing up with that issue, I started worrying about the master cylinder. "Wouldn't it just be my luck if that thing was bad, and I had to take it all out after I thought that I was all finished," was the nut that was rattling around in my head. Right, another preemptive strike. I sent the master cylinder off to be sleeved.

BTW, I had a very good experience with these guys for the sleeving:

brakecylinder.com and Sierra Specialty Automotive.

Back to the driving part, which is the good part. As I first got it on the road, I noticed a rubbing noise. I thought that it was just the brake pads seating on the disks. No, it was too loud, too annoying and lasted too long. My next theory was that I had over tightened the wheel bearings.

When I went to take the hub apart, I found that the brake pad spring clip things were just dragging on the disk. How can such a tiny piece of metal make such an awful racket? Anyway, 5 seconds on the grinding wheel and the brakes were perfect. Smooth, no fuss, no pulling, and I don't think that the pedal is mushy as some people have reported.

I also like the Centerline springs, the poly bushings and the tubular front sway bar that I have in there. Just terrific, and the car feels so much more competent while driving around.

Summer is officially here now that the car is on the road! I hope people understand why I have bugs caught in my teeth--I just won't be able to get that grin off my face while I am cruising around!

Cheers,
Jon

[Gordon Raymond]

Great work! Now, when will we get to see if it still stops when you put in the BIG engine?