Veloce Sump

[VeloceOne]

Hi all,
I have an aluminum 750 Veloce sump (Complete) but without oil pump pickup.
Could anyone suggest a fair current value for it?
Regards Ian.

[Gordon Raymond]

They will bring $800 / 1000 in good condition ( no corrosion, broken fins or studs, no drilled out holes). $100 /200 for the pick up. 750 sumps can be used with 101 / 105 blocks with a milling operation on the round hole beneath the pump to replicate the square hole in a 101 Veloce sump.
Proper correct repair and restoration of these sumps can be time consuming, and pricey.
I've restored a few for customers or my own use, both 750 and 101. Money is well spent on good ones, as replica's are not available to my knowledge.
Condition is everything with this sump.

[VeloceOne]

Gordon,
Thanks for the reply. I actually have two Veloce sumps, one of which I want to use on a 101 engine. Do you happen to have the dimensions of the modified recess that is necessary in order to use it with a 101 block?
Regards Ian.

[Gordon Raymond]

Hi Ian,
No problem. Lets start at the beginning. I'm going to post some pictures here of a 101 restored Veloce sump that belongs to a 101 race engine. Then we will cover the details.
These show the basic sump, in this case it has a modified windage tray. Don't do that! Totally unnecessary for most all applications, and the windage tray is hard to copy. The others show outside details that are the SAME as the 750. The last photo is the area of discussion in the next post.

[Gordon Raymond]

Here's the rest. The square "hole" replaces the round hole in the 750 bottom. NOT THE ROUND PICK UP HOLE! (last picture). This is for pump bottom clearance. My final post here with photos will be the pumps involved. This square hole is cut with a mill, in two steps. First with the bottom cooling labyrinth (bottom pan section) removed, the square is cut. It is 45 mm x 30 mm and located as shown between the two penetrating labyrinth studs. ( Larger won't hurt, but make it NEAT!) Next the labyrinth is re-installed, and the "hole" is cut deeper into the bottom section, the depth from the pan upper flange is 111 mm and is the same size as the upper hole. I just set the caliper and rule in the picture for a visual idea. There are a couple of other ideas in the next post.

[Gordon Raymond]

Here is the finale! The labyrinth gasket is a rare item. Apart, if the gasket is ruined, or non existent, Permetex Ultra Grey, can be used with no gasket. The 10 mm nuts on the bottom studs are close enough together that a good seal is possible. Be sure everything in there is very clean, before gluing it together with this stuff! Disassembly after the Permetex sets takes lots of single edge razor blades and patience.
The round pick-up hole dimension is the same for 750's and 101's. If you don't have the correct pick up neck, I have sources, but be prepared with an open wallet!
Here are the two correct pumps, side by side. Left is a OEM Veloce 750, right a Veloce 101. The lower gear case in the 750 is shorter. The internal gears are shorter and 11 tooth. The 1600 Veloce pump has larger diameter, longer, 9 tooth gears.
Some cut the bottom of the 101 pump off shorter, and at an angle where the mainshaft and idler shaft pass through the pump lower housing. This allows the 101 pump to fit the 750 bottom, but will lead to early oil pump FAILURE as the idler gear shaft in the lower body is not properly supported and will tip internally, causing all manner of pump nastiness. This WAS a popular modification years ago, to allow the use of the "new" pump in the 750's. The correct solution is the pan modification, coupled with a 101 Veloce pump, or a seriously reworked 750 pump in an original 750 Veloce sump. I do this work, but it is not inexpensive.
Now... further questions, send me a PM, and I'll get back to you with an E-Mail address and phone number. I hope this helps.

[VeloceOne]

Hi Gordon,
Thanks so much for the very comprehensive reply. It is exactly what I was looking for. I do have a new 101 pump complete with the pickup, now I will be able to get on with the pan modifications.
Once again, many thanks, regards Ian.

[alfa soon]

While this is fresh in everyones (Gordon...) mind, any unexpected headaches putting an 00120 pan on an 00121 engine?

giulietta sprints

[Gordon Raymond]

Hi Matt,
In short, no not really any problems. Fortunately Alfa made the bottom flange on all the NORD blocks pretty much the same. Some sumps are deeper, some have spacers that were available to make them deeper. Too deep in some chassis, like the Alfetta pan in the Giulietta / Giulia chassis likes to lift man hole covers.
Now that said, pumps and / or pump pick-ups must match the application. On the 2L blocks, the rear main caps have 4 studs rather than 2 like the earlier blocks. Not a problem, just remove the extra offending studs. Some drill the older pans, I prefer not to do this. Good pan gaskets, with proper sealant, and you will have no leaks.
Some worry about the thinner gasket support when using either an older pan with the filter canister cut out on a straight flanged block, or the other way around with a straight sided pan flange on an old Giulietta / Giulia cut away block flange. Neither will leak there. Plenty of alloy to seal the area is available.
As I mentioned, the biggest problem is the pump pick-up. It needs to be the type used with the particular pan in question. In some cases this is just a different pump, or pump bottom, or if the pump bottom has studs, the correct pick-up.
Finally, there is the matter of the windage tray or pump pick-up hanger (if used). The tray needs to be the style that was intended to be used with the pan. Most can be altered to be either properly suspended from the main cap studs, or hangers can be fabricated. With some pans used in either time trials or racing, it is a good idea to fabricate a "trap-door-box" like the older veloce sumps to trap oil around the pick-up so the oil will not slosh away in corners or in braking. These are easily made up from sheet aluminum. Some have been pictured on posts here on the BB.
I hope this helps Matt. I have built special pumps, with odd pick-ups for many applications. It is always preferable to replicate factory designs where possible as they WORK. Odd plumbing down there is not a great idea as Alfa engines do not work without good lubrication!

[Ian Evans]

My experience in perforating the upper pan to achieve clearance for the oil pump was negative. The pan ended up cavitating (sucking air) on steep inclines. I ended up removing the pan, welding up the hole and modifying (read grinding) the oil pump for more clearance. Your experience may differ...

Ian

[Gordon Raymond]

The hole cut in the upper pan cannot be cut so large as to go beyond the edge of the lip in the lower pan. The lower pan must be removed to note the EDGE OF THE LABYRINTH in this section, as Ian suggests, or an air leak will be created in the pump well between the upper and lower sump. If you do get over ambitious with the milling, the air leak can be repaired by a SKILLED aluminum welder, on the bottom pan area around the cut square hole, or lacking that, carefully applied JB Weld epoxy in the bottom section to create a new wall around the square hole in the upper pan.
On a similar note, some use a sealant on the top edge of the labyrinth to actually seal the passages in the lower pan to the upper so that oil MUST flow all through the cooling passages. As originally assembled, Alfa did not do this. The small amount of oil that leaks over the top wall of the passages is not significant. Moreover, with the labyrinth actually glued to the upper pan, the two sections are about impossible to separate.
As Ian suggests, the bottom section needs to be studied carefully, before cutting the larger well, as support and a gasket-like seal around the square hole in the upper sump IS necessary. The OEM gaskets, both 750 and 101, provided for a air and oil tight seal in this area.

[Gordon Raymond]

For experiment, or repair, there is a 750 sump bottom currently listed on E-Bay, item # 110320197000.

[alfazagato]

Have you decided on a price for the sump yet? If so please PM me.
Thanks

[VeloceOne]

Stuart,
If you are referring to me, two others have already asked about the sump. IF I decide to sell the spare sump, I have promised the first person the first right of refusal. I have not yet decided what I will do. (It will NOT go on e-bay)
Regards Ian.