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post #16 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
By the rumors European QV with manual will be discontinued soon. The reason? About 95% of all Giulia were ordered with automatic transmission.
So, there is no reason to invest in engineering, and there in no savings in purchasing

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Because it is already in production, the engineering, development and in the case for the US, the federalization has already been done so there is no real further investing in it. Plus because of this, you would think that Alfa would want to get a return on the investment of the manual rather than take a loss.

Also, can we all please stop the argument of which is better the manual or automatic already? Us manual folks will acknowledge that modern automatics are more efficient and faster but we prefer a manual anyway. Why is it so important to 'convert' us? Be happy that your automatics have won...plus why does it have to be one or the other? Why cant we have a CHOICE of which transmission? Wouldn't that make us all happy?
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post #17 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 04:54 AM
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Why cant we have a CHOICE of which transmission? Wouldn't that make us all happy?
James - very well written, I can not agree more with you. Yes, it would be nice to have the choice, but that ain't happening. I have to say that after driving a auto with the paddle shifters and the engine/suspension combination options, I did not miss the manual.

Now......if I just had $75k to buy one....

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post #18 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 07:33 PM
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We have a QV and it is a spectacular car. The ZF-8 in manual mode is quite entertaining. But of course since we were not given a choice there will always be that niggling suspicion that it may be a better car with a 3-pedal manual. Not "better" in terms of any objective performance metric but perhaps a better overall driving experience? I guess we will never know.

I have heard a few different stories on why the manual was not offered (just rumors really):

1) Dealer push back. They didn't feel they would be able to give test drives in a manual, and knew the QV would be here before the 2.0 turbo cars. Yes some car salespeople can not drive a manual.

2) Emissions are very difficult to control during the time the engine and transmission are de-coupled, i.e. during shifts. With a manual transmission that time period is user-controlled, and some people are particularly inept at driving a manual, so that is a variable they didn't want to have to deal with.

Neither of these explains the last minute switch from manual to automatic, however.

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post #19 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 08:19 PM
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Pity, just means I am unlikely to buy one, having driven shift cars and enjoyed it since I learned to drive in 1958, Alfas since 1966. Was not impressed with the paddle shifters of my friend's Audi A6.

It is obvious I no longer fit the new Fiat/Alfa customer demographic.

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91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
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72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

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62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #20 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 02:52 AM
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Pity, just means I am unlikely to buy one, having driven shift cars and enjoyed it since I learned to drive in 1958, Alfas since 1966. Was not impressed with the paddle shifters of my friend's Audi A6.

It is obvious I no longer fit the new Fiat/Alfa customer demographic.
Sorry to see you feel that way, but really, a lot of other vehicles are going that way. I heard the same complaints (no manuals) on the Porsche GT3's, then heard they loved the auto and paddle shifters.

You can get a Fiat Abarth with a manual trans, there are still options out there.

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post #21 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeCab View Post
We have a QV and it is a spectacular car. The ZF-8 in manual mode is quite entertaining. But of course since we were not given a choice there will always be that niggling suspicion that it may be a better car with a 3-pedal manual. Not "better" in terms of any objective performance metric but perhaps a better overall driving experience? I guess we will never know.

I have heard a few different stories on why the manual was not offered (just rumors really):

1) Dealer push back. They didn't feel they would be able to give test drives in a manual, and knew the QV would be here before the 2.0 turbo cars. Yes some car salespeople can not drive a manual.

2) Emissions are very difficult to control during the time the engine and transmission are de-coupled, i.e. during shifts. With a manual transmission that time period is user-controlled, and some people are particularly inept at driving a manual, so that is a variable they didn't want to have to deal with.

Neither of these explains the last minute switch from manual to automatic, however.
Joe, I would bet my life that it is your scenario 1 and this all came from the dealers. The emissions, federalization and envelopment is moot since it was already done. The dealers I am sure squawked at Alfa's initial decision to make the QV manual only and quite frankly, rightfully so. If Alfa was going to make a manual available it should have always been sold along side the automatic and not make it the only transmission available. Even as a manual fan, I saw this as being short sighted. To pull the manual at the last minute however, was equally short sighted considering that it was already developed and federalized.

I have read quotes from Alfa US stating that the take rate for the manual would have been one percent which is absurd. Motor Trend states that the BMW M3 has a manual take rate of 25% and even if you take a straw poll of the current QV owners, a good percentage would have chosen a manual had it been available. Plus add all of the folks on the sideline who would have bought the car and who are now looking elsewhere (like me). Because a federalized version of the QV exists, I am still holding out the slim hope that it will become available later on this year and if not, then I have a difficult decision to make.
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post #22 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 07:19 AM
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If Alfa has already had the Giulia pass crash testing and emissions (for the manual trans version - assuming they did, as they pulled the plug at the LAST minute), then a car bought in Europe with a manual is substantially the same car that was federalized here. I'm sure there's minor differences between Euro and US versions, but perhaps it actually could be done without waiting 25 years and/or spending a lot of money?
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post #23 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 07:41 AM
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I would rather have a manual transmission Alfa, but paddle shifting transmissions shift faster and can be driven by anyone. I like my restored 101 Sprint Veloce, but only drive it less than once a month. I will buy a new Giulia and sell my old Milanos. I also know that one day all of the cars were probably be electric and gas powered cars will be museum pieces so enjoy what you have now.
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post #24 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 08:03 AM
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I would rather have a manual transmission Alfa, but paddle shifting transmissions shift faster and can be driven by anyone. I like my restored 101 Sprint Veloce, but only drive it less than once a month. I will buy a new Giulia and sell my old Milanos. I also know that one day all of the cars were probably be electric and gas powered cars will be museum pieces so enjoy what you have now.
An utterly depressing, though utterly realistic observation.

I haven't driven a new Giulia yet, though I certainly hope it's as entertaining as my Milano Verde was! And, frankly, as durable and reliable. Aside from maintenance and minor quibbles, it was a trusted friend.
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post #25 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Gepetto View Post
If Alfa has already had the Giulia pass crash testing and emissions (for the manual trans version - assuming they did, as they pulled the plug at the LAST minute), then a car bought in Europe with a manual is substantially the same car that was federalized here. I'm sure there's minor differences between Euro and US versions, but perhaps it actually could be done without waiting 25 years and/or spending a lot of money?
That would certainly be an interesting, if true. I'm not an expert in vehicle imports, but I believe the manufacturer has to submit some sort of certificate that the vehicle is identical to a car that was certified for the USDM market. I'm not sure if the QV has any other changes from the Euro edition besides transmission, but even minor ones like side marker color could mean making the car legal in the U.S. would be a very expensive proposition. If there are any differences, it's not just a matter of modifying the vehicle to conform- it would have to get certified to be driven in the U.S.

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post #26 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 08:42 AM
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That would certainly be an interesting, if true. I'm not an expert in vehicle imports, but I believe the manufacturer has to submit some sort of certificate that the vehicle is identical to a car that was certified for the USDM market. I'm not sure if the QV has any other changes from the Euro edition besides transmission, but even minor ones like side marker color could mean making the car legal in the U.S. would be a very expensive proposition. If there are any differences, it's not just a matter of modifying the vehicle to conform- it would have to get certified to be driven in the U.S.
I think it could be done...I know a guy who used to import cars and modify them to meet US standards (though this was quite some time ago). I'll have to try to find out more.
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post #27 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 12:37 PM
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I think it could be done...I know a guy who used to import cars and modify them to meet US standards (though this was quite some time ago). I'll have to try to find out more.
I believe at one time you could simply modify them to U.S. spec, get it inspected by the state, and all would be well. My understanding today is that you have to get the vehicle certified by the feds after the modification- which is a big money process- and really only an option if cost is not a concern.

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post #28 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 04:41 PM
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The basic question remains: since the car with manual transmission was certified for the US, can a European model be imported privately and have it be legal? Maybe only Alfa knows, and what it takes to satisfy the US.
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89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #29 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 05:47 PM
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The basic question remains: since the car with manual transmission was certified for the US, can a European model be imported privately and have it be legal? Maybe only Alfa knows, and what it takes to satisfy the US.
I think it's a question worth asking Alfa Romeo. If enough people query them about it, they might decide to make it available as a factory order option (meaning there's no way to test drive it at a dealer...).
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post #30 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 06:08 PM
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Rent one in Europe?

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Seattle

89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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