Alfa Romeo and "alternative facts" - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:47 PM
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We had a Norwegian exchange student, and par for the course, she got her driver's license here, as it is less expensive here by a long shot than in Norway. Anyway, she ended up learning on a stickshift car here, but complained that she didn't understand why people would drive a stickshift, when the automatic was so much easier. Well, when she got back to Norway and got her license there and bought a car, all she could afford at the time was a stickshift car. Later, she wrote us and said that she now understood why some liked stickshifts, as she now did. She allowed as how she did enjoy the shifting, and felt that in some Norwegian winter conditions, the stickshift car was easier to control. Wouldn't buy an automatic now. Had to laugh.

One question I have then, if the stickshift version is available in Europe, and was indeed certified for here in the States, could one import a stickshift version legally? Maybe a European delivery setup as they and other companys have had. Or just do it privately.
That is a great question as the QV was federalized for a manual....I imagine if the Europe versions are the same in other safety features as the US cars one should be able to import the car??? as far as Euro delivery they (Alfa) don't offer that right now as I had asked. I am going to speculate that if Alfa is truly committed to making a go of selling the line again here they are going to have to offer the comparable services offered by BMW & Merc when it comes to things like Euro delivery, leasing plans, etc.
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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 02:20 PM
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@nealric which BMW did you drive with the same ZF8 transmission?? I'm curious as I also have in the garage a 340xi M-Sport which has the ZF8 speed paddle shift...and it does not shift anywhere near the same as the QV.
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M
It was a 340i. But shifting differently wouldn't have made me like it more. The transmission shifted quickly and well- certainly light years better than the old 4-speed transmissions that used to be common. But nothing they could change with the transmission programming could do anything to replace the lost tactile sensations of a third pedal and a shift lever.

If you are looking for a comfortable car or something to set your absolute best lap times, then auto is the clear choice. If you are looking to have fun with a car and you prefer the feeling of a manual, there is nothing they can do to make the paddle shift better.
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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 04:42 PM
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It was a 340i. But shifting differently wouldn't have made me like it more. The transmission shifted quickly and well- certainly light years better than the old 4-speed transmissions that used to be common. But nothing they could change with the transmission programming could do anything to replace the lost tactile sensations of a third pedal and a shift lever.

If you are looking for a comfortable car or something to set your absolute best lap times, then auto is the clear choice. If you are looking to have fun with a car and you prefer the feeling of a manual, there is nothing they can do to make the paddle shift better.
this is true...to compare a manual to any form of auto is just apples and oranges....
the sad truth is that people are just not buying manuals in the numbers that the bean counters want to see....

this back and forth banter is subjective...if you like a manual there is nothing anyone will do to change your mind...same with auto...
but what is just plain SILLY to me is the banter that if you buy an auto your not a car guy
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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 04:58 PM
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I don't think most are saying that, because we all know there are different kinds of car guys, or women. Depends on what you like in a car. Some like smoothness or ease of driving, some like tactile interaction with machinery.

Some like buying ready made furniture, I like the hands on process of making some of it. Some like buying a ready made piece of metal, while I like the feel of a metal lathe responding to my hand movements as I create something. Just different strokes for different folks.

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89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 06:26 AM
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Dave:

Personally I share your opinions about manual vs slushbox. But if Alfa wants to sell cars and make money, they can't live in the past. The target market for 2017 Alfa Romeos are people of an age group who simply don't drive manual transmission cars. And don't want to learn.

Combine that with a US DOT that charges $ millions to certify each version of a drivetrain, and it would end up costing Fiat-Chrysler a bundle to sell just a handful of manual Alfas.
Jay, even though I am thoroughly PO'ed at Alfa for not bringing the manual over, I did find their initial stance of bringing ONLY the manual over as an odd if not stupid business proposition at best (considering that they are trying to get a foothold in a market that they have not been in for over twenty years and were woefully unsuccessful in the past). However, Alfa did in fact federalize the manual since they were going down the path of bringing it over to the US until the last minute so if that is case, why not bring both?

For this car and this market, there ABSOLUTELY is a significant percentage of people who would buy the manual to make a business case of bringing it over. Look at the folks that have already taken delivery of the QV on this forum. Even though they love their car and are happy with the DSG, many would have gotten the manual if it was offered.

And this goes to a lot of the other manufacturers who stopped offering manuals in their performance cars in models that previously had them. The product managers take the stance 'see, no one wants a manual' where that is not the case. We just dont have them offered to us so we get an automatic instead. i recently spoke to my Audi dealer (I currently drive a manual 2013 S5) about the lack of the manual in the next generation S5 who stated that there is a demand and he even lost a few customers when the new R8 was no longer offered in a manual.

Plus, if Alfa does not offer cars to be built on customers spec as do the German brands, then the only thing we have available is what the dealer has in stock and they are ALWAYS going to choose an automatic especially in the case of the QV where they have very limited allocations. Also the reason why these early cars are optioned up to the hilt. If the manual was an extra charge, then the dealer allocations may had been different.
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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 06:33 AM
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I don't think most are saying that, because we all know there are different kinds of car guys, or women. Depends on what you like in a car. Some like smoothness or ease of driving, some like tactile interaction with machinery.

Some like buying ready made furniture, I like the hands on process of making some of it. Some like buying a ready made piece of metal, while I like the feel of a metal lathe responding to my hand movements as I create something. Just different strokes for different folks.
Exactly....we should not judge each other based upon our choices in transmissions. It's just sad that the manual folks are being squeezed out when there really is no need to. Choice is a very good thing!
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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 06:36 AM
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Remember how Alfa promised they'd offer a true manual transmission (with clutch pedal) in the USA on the Giulia Quadrifoglio? Well, a friend of mine just bought a Quad, but even though he requested the full manual, he had to settle for the paddle-shift "manu-matic"; he was told by the dealership that Alfa decided not to bring any manual-trans cars over after all.

Too bad for the three or four people left in this country (such as myself) who only want cars with manual transmissions. Not that I can afford any new car, much less an Giulia Quad - but I do wish our favorite car company would have been more upfront with us about their business decisions.
DSpieg,

Take a look at the thread I had started in November where I complained to Alfa US and actually got an email back from Reid Bigand (the head of Alfa US)

Email from Reid Bigland regarding the lack of manual in the US
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 07:50 AM
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I think they will eventually will sell them here with manuals, but just wanted to get the car right for the launch. If you recall, Jaguar waited two years before selling a manual F-Type, and that model makes up 20% of F-type sales.
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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 08:14 AM
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I think they will eventually will sell them here with manuals, but just wanted to get the car right for the launch. If you recall, Jaguar waited two years before selling a manual F-Type, and that model makes up 20% of F-type sales.
Hopefully. A nice new Giulia TI with a 6-spd manual sounds optimal to me.

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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 08:48 AM
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Now, that car we would look at.

Del

Seattle

89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 09:12 AM
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@James...as you are an Audi guy why did they drop the S4 from the 2017-18 line-up?
That was a nice AWD sedan that could be had in a manual...and there were so many around my neck of the woods you thought they were giving them away...
My brother in CA can't even find a left-over on the lot anywhere in a manual....

Well if the Alfa community yells loud enough maybe they will listen..worked for BMW with the E36 M3. :-)
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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 09:13 AM
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You are quicker than me Zinhead. I hate to say it but Jaguar is taking Alfa to task with their cars. jag is actually expanding their product offerings with the manual. The only problem I see with them is that they are not offering it with their large V8's. I hope Jaguar sells a crap load of manuals. I am not currently in the market for a car but in a couple of years I will be and currently it would be between the Jaguar XE and the Giulia, If things stay the same and the Giulia does not offer a manual I guess we will be driving a Jaguar.

As far as kids with Manuals, my daughter is 15 and has a new permit. She is just now learning to drive a manual, and in a year or so she will probably be getting a fiat 500 with a manual. I have been asked by several of her friends to teach them to drive a stick, so there is interest out their. And yes some have already figured out how to roll the car and pop the clutch to get it started.

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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 09:47 AM
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... As far as kids with Manuals, my daughter is 15 and has a new permit. She is just now learning to drive a manual, and in a year or so she will probably be getting a fiat 500 with a manual. I have been asked by several of her friends to teach them to drive a stick, so there is interest out their. And yes some have already figured out how to roll the car and pop the clutch to get it started.

Kevin
Yeah, I taught my daughter to drive a manual as well (on a 1981 Alfa GTV6). She doesn't currently, but at least she knows how. My wife and I share a Mini-Cooper S with a 6-spd manual, in the winter (in the not-winter, she gets the Mini to herself, and I'm generally found on a Ducati motorcycle).

A full automatic is not desirable to me. Whatever the situation, I (and the vehicle) are the ones actually in that situation, and I want to decide what gear is appropriate, and not leave it to the assumptions of some engineer/programmer somewhere/somewhen else. That said, an automated manual, or paddleshift automatic, removes that objection. So while I still resist the idea on a gut level, I have to rationally admit that if they can get it to change the ratio smoothly and when I want it to, that's an objectively superior system.

With cars, I can see the attraction -- manual transmissions involve having more controls than limbs, and so having control over the transmission ratios without having to take your appendages off the wheel or other pedals is rationally a plus.

I still enjoy the shifting, though. But then, I'm an old guy, whose bikes all still have carburetors, and whose cars all still have stickshifts.

PhilB
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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 12:18 PM
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@James...as you are an Audi guy why did they drop the S4 from the 2017-18 line-up?
That was a nice AWD sedan that could be had in a manual...and there were so many around my neck of the woods you thought they were giving them away...
My brother in CA can't even find a left-over on the lot anywhere in a manual....

Well if the Alfa community yells loud enough maybe they will listen..worked for BMW with the E36 M3. :-)
I have not heard that Audi has dropped the S4 however I would not be surprised considering the direction that they are taking. Their cars all look the same with the sedans taking the XS, S, M and L approach and the new 5's look like A4 coupes. The interiors are now stark and minimalist...the fact that I like M4's interior better than the new generation S5 is shocking to me. In general, they seem to be going towards an old school Mercedes Benz approach...not my cup of tea anymore sadly.

When the lease of my S5 was up in November and before I bought it out, I looked at leftover 2017 S5's on the dealer lots (Audi had closed factory orders in September for the new model) there was not one manual to be found. In the end I'm glad I did not go that route and I now have time to really figure out what I want.

If Alfa is paying attention to its social media posts and their comments, I am sure that they are getting the message that there is a market for the manual in the QV. I truly believe that they pulled it because the dealers complained....not the customers and they don't have a sales model where we can custom order a car from the factory like the Germans (at least not at this time).
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2017, 12:38 PM
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I could like picking up a new midpowered Giulia w/manual in Italy as part of a European Delivery set up, later to be delivered to a dealer near me. Have done that before with another make years ago, and it was fun.
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Del

Seattle

89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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