05-31-2007, 12:44 PM
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Banks
Alex - £25,000 is about Sprint GT level to be honest, it'll need to be pretty good at that too.
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Just in standard road trim? Can't imagine that mine would cost that much to replace but hmmm ... might have to get on the blower to the insurance company. 
Cheers,
Alex.
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05-31-2007, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
Just in standard road trim? Can't imagine that mine would cost that much to replace but hmmm ... might have to get on the blower to the insurance company.
Cheers,
Alex. |
No full race App K...
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[COLOR=Blue][URL]www.alfaholics.com[/URL][/COLOR]
1966 2.0 Sprint GT race car, 1967 T/S GTA Replica, 1965 FIA App.K 1600 GTA, 1965 1600 GTA Stradale RHD, 1965 1600 GTA Stradale LHD, 1966 1600 Giulia GTC, 1991 S4 Spider, 1967 1600 Duetto, 1999 2.0 916GTV (soon to be sold!) and now replaced with 2002 3.0 V6 24v 916 GTV
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05-31-2007, 02:06 PM
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CanAm Bob,
Look at the syntax, "apparently" was the word use to refer to the fact that there was a car, "purporting" was the guide used conditionally. I have no argument really other than if there is a complainant who hides behind weasel words because someone might have said this or that. it would be good to have some facts and not just innuendo.
If there was such a thing as a bill of sale which excluded a log book, it probably must say so. If not why not? If someone built a car there must be an invoice for works done. If not, the whole of our interest is founded on the shallowest of sandy bottoms, and to be frank, who will buy your car if you can't provide cast iron proof of everything including the size of the socks of the previous owner?
We make our own fortune in this hobby and clarity and transparency should dominate our dealings. Again CanAmBob has missed the point, it is not up to me to make the running. I am several moves away from the action. If those who know want to say something they should ...or belt up. Put up or shut up. There can be no room for guilt by association, nod, nod, wink, wink, characterisation.
Either we say that the car in question is the real thing or we condemn it for a fake and put up the evidence. That's what the courts would require. Why should we be different?
__________________
Stuart
'56 Giulietta Spider, '57 Giulietta Spider Veloce, '57 Giulietta Lightweight Sprint Veloce, '60 SZ, '68 GTA, '76 2000 Spider
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05-31-2007, 02:45 PM
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I would agree that either it is the real deal or it is a fake/replica. But to name- names could lead to trouble. It is similar to the "replica" Bobcor car with trophy in hand. Trust... but verify........
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06-01-2007, 04:46 AM
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Stuart,
You are not "several moves from the action" as you say - its actually nothing to do with you! Whats the point in having a dig at Bob about 'words used' or saying that I'm weasling behind words.... at the end of the day its not directly to do with me, we have merely been used to clarify the whereabouts of the real car and what we knew about the other car for the innocent owner who is trying to sell it. Its not my place to go rubbishing individual names as it isn't yours either. Given that you are not in the trade but merely collect a few cars of various makes, whats it to do with you anyway?
If you are seriously not sure wether the car in question is real or not by your statement "Either we say that the car in question is the real thing or we condemn it for a fake" then I seriously suggest you think twice before you start actively posting on such a specialist area of the forum.
Rather than telling me to "put up or shut up", how about you do and stop trying to get your fingers in a pie that has nothing to do with you. Or do you want to be Mr Big in London who knows all about this car?
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[COLOR=Blue][URL]www.alfaholics.com[/URL][/COLOR]
1966 2.0 Sprint GT race car, 1967 T/S GTA Replica, 1965 FIA App.K 1600 GTA, 1965 1600 GTA Stradale RHD, 1965 1600 GTA Stradale LHD, 1966 1600 Giulia GTC, 1991 S4 Spider, 1967 1600 Duetto, 1999 2.0 916GTV (soon to be sold!) and now replaced with 2002 3.0 V6 24v 916 GTV
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06-01-2007, 07:51 AM
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Max, calm down! This correspondence started by my agreement with your comment "I vote all those involved in creating it should be named and shamed so we can put a black mark on them!" I still agree but so far everyone has clammed up.
I also freely acknowledge that I am many, many stages removed from this incident and indeed, if it were not for my interest in GTAs and the formation of a proper register (which has been mooted on this thread before) and the fact a friend of mine was unwittingly involved, I could care less.
I believe that we have to be clear in our aims generally, do we stay quiet when we know of (I will use a weasel word here) "irregularities". or do we try to get clarification for everyone's benefit. You appear to have changed your view about naming and shaming.
Just finally, I believe that this forum has been very successful in the matter of this car and more power to its elbow. And as far as being Mr Big is concerned in this case I would much prefer to be Mr Small of London and have no worries about buying a GTA!
__________________
Stuart
'56 Giulietta Spider, '57 Giulietta Spider Veloce, '57 Giulietta Lightweight Sprint Veloce, '60 SZ, '68 GTA, '76 2000 Spider
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06-01-2007, 01:17 PM
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diggin... is the car on the list  There's a couple of GTA's on here...?
What about this one? It sits on 5 star Revo's, identical mirrors...however is listed as Sprint GT - not GTA - so I guess I am wrong?
Last edited by hagen111; 06-01-2007 at 01:44 PM.
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06-02-2007, 07:23 AM
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Here is a picture of the firewall on our red GTA AR 752 556. I am also attaching a picture of the firewall on our white GTA AR 752 557. Note the difference in the chassis number on the black firewall earlier in this thread.
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Anthony Rimicci | 64 Giulia Spider | 65 Giulia Ti | 65 GTA | 68 GT Jr. | 78 Spider Veloce
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06-08-2007, 09:36 AM
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Stevie Wonder could spot the difference
Quote:
Originally Posted by italcarguy
Here is a picture of the firewall on our red GTA AR 752 556. I am also attaching a picture of the firewall on our white GTA AR 752 557. Note the difference in the chassis number on the black firewall earlier in this thread.
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Thanks for the photos Anthony.
As I said earlier in the thread there is no doubt the serial number on the Coys car (black background) is a counterfeit and a poor one at that. The problem is that others will learn from this report and the next time the counterfeit part will be much better. The first counterfeit Can-Am Lola tags I noted years ago were primitive but they got much better.
This is why we need a GTA registry.
The poor owner probably never thought to look at this detail.
I was considering this car in January and Roman told me the real car was in Los Angeles----he saved me the time and money of learning the hard way.
Bob
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06-08-2007, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAmBob
Thanks for the photos Anthony.
As I said earlier in the thread there is no doubt the serial number on the Coys car (black background) is a counterfeit and a poor one at that. The problem is that others will learn from this report and the next time the counterfeit part will be much better. The first counterfeit Can-Am Lola tags I noted years ago were primitive but they got much better.
This is why we need a GTA registry.
The poor owner probably never thought to look at this detail.
I was considering this car in January and Roman told me the real car was in Los Angeles----he saved me the time and money of learning the hard way.
Bob
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there is a gta registry - contact alfa and they will confirm the serial number. all it takes is a little patience.
there are a couple serial number lists floating around (yo anthony) but they are largely incomplete and in the end just a list of numbers. given alfa's production policy with the gta/gtaj/gtam there are bound to be gaps in the list making it easy for someone hellbent on making a fake to just pull a number. i for one would have no problem putting my list (a non original work by the way - compiled from info from anders ericsson, thomas pippon, ken geiger, tony adriensens, and any thing i came across) up on the web. not sure what it would accomplish though...
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06-08-2007, 10:09 AM
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Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtaj
there is a gta registry - contact alfa and they will confirm the serial number. all it takes is a little patience.
there are a couple serial number lists floating around (yo anthony) but they are largely incomplete and in the end just a list of numbers. given alfa's production policy with the gta/gtaj/gtam there are bound to be gaps in the list making it easy for someone hellbent on making a fake to just pull a number. i for one would have no problem putting my list (a non original work by the way - compiled from info from anders ericsson, thomas pippon, ken geiger, tony adriensens, and any thing i came across) up on the web. not sure what it would accomplish though...
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I have my letter from Alfa with the 1965 Build date and they were quick to respond.
My belief is that an on line registry puts the would be counterfeiters on notice that the Serial number is taken and there is an active aware owner out there.
Plus the auction houses could check the registry and verify the serial number and seller/owner match. Based on my experience with other marques these counterfeiters try to pick cars they believe have gone to scrap yard and that no one will dispute there creation. We can't stop the recreations/replicas of cars dead and buried I like other owners don't want a clone of my car.
The registry like this BB requires some volunteer work and someone has to deal with updating the list and any dispute resolution.
If you are up for doing the work of the GTA registry I will cheer you on. I really would like it on this BB as a way to drive traffic here.
Bob
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06-08-2007, 10:19 AM
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thats probably a good idea but... how would you confirm that a car is in fact real before listing its number? only currently existing cars of also those that have bit the dust? theres really not a lot of these cars that change hands very often, and the auction houses don't care as long as they sell the car and make the commission - "buyer beware"
in the end its tough for someone to start and follow through on these types of things. especially on their own time and for free. i know this from personal experience.
nice talking to you
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06-08-2007, 10:29 AM
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It is a tough job
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtaj
thats probably a good idea but... how would you confirm that a car is in fact real before listing its number? only currently existing cars of also those that have bit the dust? theres really not a lot of these cars that change hands very often, and the auction houses don't care as long as they sell the car and make the commission - "buyer beware"
in the end its tough for someone to start and follow through on these types of things. especially on their own time and for free. i know this from personal experience.
nice talking to you
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The registry is a tough job and a thankless one that some have likened it to a spear catching job. Criteria would have to be established to list the cars. For starters you could use the knowledge of well known board members and Alfa Gurus.
That is why I am going to be very supportive of anyone that takes on the job.
Bob
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06-08-2007, 10:58 AM
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I have to say I agree totally with CanAmBob on the desirability of a registry. Just as a point of interest there is a chap in Austria (I think) who has started this process and seems to run a detailed and updated register of GTA numbers with engine numbers and history of each car. Its totally unofficial of course and I have no idea what checks he runs on the numbers on the list. His name is Martin Übelher, e-mail Address martin.uebelher@aon.at. He may be worth talking to. He appears to be very involved with the history and has lists of lightweights and SZ too! I met him through the BB and he appears to be a straight sort of person.
__________________
Stuart
'56 Giulietta Spider, '57 Giulietta Spider Veloce, '57 Giulietta Lightweight Sprint Veloce, '60 SZ, '68 GTA, '76 2000 Spider
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06-08-2007, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtaj
there is a gta registry - contact alfa and they will confirm the serial number. all it takes is a little patience.
there are a couple serial number lists floating around (yo anthony) but they are largely incomplete and in the end just a list of numbers. given alfa's production policy with the gta/gtaj/gtam there are bound to be gaps in the list making it easy for someone hellbent on making a fake to just pull a number. i for one would have no problem putting my list (a non original work by the way - compiled from info from anders ericsson, thomas pippon, ken geiger, tony adriensens, and any thing i came across) up on the web. not sure what it would accomplish though...
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Personally, I have not come across cars that seem to be made up numbers fitting in the gaps - they are relatively easy to catch with information from the Archivio Storico, even though their info is not always 100%. A bigger problem are cars that are built surrounding a real number but the car really doesn't exist any more - this is an issue especially with TZ's.
With GTA and GTAm's the knock-offs I have come across use the serial # of an existing car, to the effect that two cars with identical numbers exist, a real one and a fake one. The Archivio Storico doesn't help you in that regard in that they will identify just the number. In fact their disclaimer at the bottom of their response usually alludes to that.
A good register would help with that issue a lot in that there is likely to be information regarding continuity of ownership and if two owners with the same serial # try to register someone likely will wake up. No it's not foolproof and occassionally there is someone who will use a certain position of authority in the marque to ascertain that a car which is questionable to be real or sometimes register information will identify one car to be race winner when in fact it likely was a sister car. But generally, a good register would protect against the doubles that are currently circulating, whereas the Archivio Storico protects against made-up serial #, eg filling the gaps to some extent.
Finally, current FIA racing does encourage these doubles in that the cars frequently are almost silhouette cars that have a shell with mostly current mechanicals. In fact the FIA doesn't allow many parts, eg not homologated before end of 65, on the car which made GTA's special in the first place. Also there are definitely owners who own a real car and a copy which they race, which may create problems down the road.
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