Sequential Gearbox

[OzMidnight]

Yes, why should development stop just because the car was made in the 1960's? If you want to race historics, then build the car to those rules. If there are other classes you can fit the car into with modern components, that don't spoil the overall look of the car, and you want to have a go and be competitive, then why not? If there are no competitors, then why call it a race at all? There are choices for people who want to race "as it was" and choices for people who want to push their cars with new developments. How about new camshaft design - not allowed? Perhaps carbies and ignition curves should only be set by ear? Where does it all stop? Or start? Not looking for a disagreement - just saying there are choices and people are free to make their own.

If people don't like the new developments, they could always not read the associated threads and pollute the thread by going off-topic and having a whinge about them.

I like the gearbox work shown here...first-class. I'm glad I was sitting down when I saw the price but I can see why it is that high!

[NZ1300 Ti]

Totally agree. If you don't like whats on TV don't watch it, simple...

Love the transmission, I want one. Maybe a DIY kit.

[Sprintn]

I tend to agree with the above... unless you have an all mtaching #'s GTA or the like.
As we Alfa folks do not seem to have a magazine solely dedicated to our pursuits, I have been reading the various Porsche rags. It is fun to read about folks enjoying there cars and hear what they are doing with them. Of most interest is to read about the guys/gals that have the 964 911's or earlier to see what they are doing with their cars. Many do what Max has done and recreate or replicate an ST or RS but for the modern age. Even the folks with the rare SWB 911's may keep them clean and original looking all while haveing fun with bringing the engine, brakes, transmissions, suspensions, etc. up to a more modern or powerful spec. THey may even go as far as put 930 flared wheel arches on their cars but they all do thier thing in a tasteful, Porsche-esgue manner. These are all dihard enthusiasts like all of us feeling free to have fun with their cars. To many...having a machine like an Alfa is the ability to have machine that we can treat as our own race car to work on and our garage as our shop. THis way the car becomes something more than to look at and drive. It becomes something to be submersed in... something we can get under, take the wheels off of, open the hood, and tinker with...improve upon... and feel the fruits, or lack thereof, during our next drive. When done for the day or evening, after crawling out from under it or closing the engine bay, we can whipe our hands clean while looking at the classic shap of the our Alfa and smile.
I would read regularly FORZA magazine but after a while... although the folks who owned the Ferraris definately enjoyed and appreciated their cars... it became a bit boaring because other than driving or showing them, they did not seam to be having a lot of fun or involvement with the car. The only cars that seemed to be modified in any way are the newer models and even that is the usual stuff done buy the handful of Ferrari tuners and sometimes costing more then the origianl sales price of the car. THe end user was not the one getting his hands dirty or even and understanding because these new cars are too complicated to do so. Even after these Tuner improvements the car really had no additional character like so many of our cars do or the Porsches do in the various rags that i have read. After the car is back from the tuner... it still looks, for the most part, like your standard, run of the mill, boaring F430 yet cost a Hell of a lot and the owner can probably not tell you much more about it or why... just that it is faster.
So... we as Alfa folks are in a special situation... a situation where we can enjoy our cars in many different ways without having to be CEO of a now defunct Financial institution or worried about what our car is going to sell for at the next auction. And... being so hands-on and in tune with our cars as many of us are, we become much more knowledgeable abut our cars and cars in general.
FOr us... it is not about the bling but about the grease and grime under our fingernails. IMHO
Sprintn

[vegar]

I think there are at least two sides of this For most of us want to make "our" Alfa for ourself and enjoy it on fine days. Then I think it is OK with coil-overs and TS's in a 105. Then we can develop the cars fr our spesific taste, just like the 911 boys.

BUT, for historic racing the point is to race a car like it was when new, not developed in 30-40 years. I am curently building a -65 1275 Cooper S in FIA apendix K form, and in my class "all" the newly buildt engines develop at least 15 bhp and revs 500-700 rpm more than they did in the 60thies. Also most engines got billet cranks, billet rods etc. I must say I dont like this development Why keep on develop a historic racer?? It is just for fun anyway. For serius racing its a lot of other classes, both tin tops and open wheelers

[Sprintn]

For racing purposed then yes... Vintage racing should be done with a VIntage car and kept to within the various rules and specs. I am not sure there should be much debate. The key words are "the VARIOUS Rules and Specs". I am sure there are different catagories for vintage cars that have more modern specs.?.?
But I am talking about being involved in your car and the enjoyment of your passion in general. I think there is a difference between Pure enjoyment and that of being too concerened about originality in that it might destroy its value in monetary terms. Having cars as an investment per se. If you are too concerned with the latter then it is my opinion that you are too concerended with someone elses potential enjoyment of the car and not your own... which can makes it hard for you to enjoy the car 100% in the moment.?.? IMHO But... if your passion is purly to build and drive and feel something that is 100% original because it alows you to experience a snapshot of the past, then this is great too and I think there are cars we all might like to have that would do this for us and we would not dare to change. For some of us our Alfa is this car... for others of us our Alfa somthing to tinker with and improve upon and we all have our own limits of what we see as tasteful.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegar BUT, for historic racing the point is to race a car like it was when new, not developed in 30-40 years. I am curently building a -65 1275 Cooper S in FIA apendix K form, and in my class "all" the newly buildt engines develop at least 15 bhp and revs 500-700 rpm more than they did in the 60thies. Also most engines got billet cranks, billet rods etc. I must say I dont like this development Why keep on develop a historic racer?? It is just for fun anyway. For serius racing its a lot of other classes, both tin tops and open wheelers

[ciscotex]

I've got a horrible headache so I'm going to tee off.

I am sick to death of holier than thou types who would attempt to define others enjoyment of these wonderful cars according to their own tastes, biases, bigotries, etc. You know the ones, "If it were my car, you should...", etc. Well it ain't your car. When you build it, build it to please yourself. In the meantime, don't rain on someone else's project unless frickin' solicited. I mean you, PSK! We all know where you stand on modifications. It should be EXACTLY as it left the factory, unless it's a modification of which you personally have need or approve of. Didn't your grandmother ever teach you that if you don't have something pleasant to say, keep your mouth shut (or keyboard quiet)?

With respect to the above comments by you and Vegar, the FIA rules are the tightest on the planet. My historic group is much more open with respect to modifications. If you don't like the rules of the sanctioning body, work to change them or go somewhere else. But understand that racing has always been unfair. I couldn't compete with the folks in the early '80s who would spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to win a $5 trophy in the "cost contained" Formula Ford of SCCA. Are you requiring an equal chance to win under Appendix K in competition with blank check types worldwide in order to have fun? If you have someone to race with, you have achieved the point of vintage racing. If winning is important to you, there are many other venues. I hear there are a couple of openings in F1 today.

With respect to these wonderful cars, many of us wish to reflect our individuality in our cars. Just being a half-bubble off plumb by owning and driving an Alfa may not be enough. Many wish to reflect their own tastes with the Alfa as a canvas on which to draw. Some are applauded, like A Very Modified GTV, others not, e.g. Ford V8 in Duetto.

Pete, what is okay to modify? A stock Ford? A Milano? A Ferrari California or original Testa Rosa? All have been modified/customized in their day. If you're at a car show and the owner is there and you don't like/approve of his build, do you stop and tell him where he went wrong? Or do you keep your unsolicited opinion to yourself and keep moving, without raining on his parade? How is this forum any different? This thread is about a friggin' gearbox fer chrissakes! (One that isn't legal in my vintage group, but I'm interested in learning about it nonetheless.) Last I heard, there was no shortage of stock Alfa gearboxes. We're not talking about an irreversible modification here, and even if we were, my comments stand.

The biggest change I've seen in America in the last 20 years is the demise of tolerance of another perspective. Everyone expects everyone else to be just like them and share ALL of their beliefs, biases, bigotries, etc. Everyone knows THEY are the center of the friggin' universe. I never learned a thing from someone who thought just like me, and I can't imagine a more boring world. I am seeing a lot of that same thinking reflected here on the bb.

After a twenty year hiatus, I've been bitten by the Alfa bug again. Yes, the cars are neat, but the best thing about Alfas, for me anyway, has always been the people. Please don't force me to reconsider this opinion.

Okay, my headache is better now. I am donning my nomex suit. Let the flaming begin.

Paul

Oops, I just realized the above was posted in perhaps the only section of the bb to which my beliefs about modifications don't apply. However, those in this section of the forum know that keeping it original is rewarded in lucre, so they can feel smug in any event.

[vegar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ciscotex With respect to the above comments by you and Vegar, the FIA rules are the tightest on the planet. My historic group is much more open with respect to modifications. If you don't like the rules of the sanctioning body, work to change them or go somewhere else. But understand that racing has always been unfair. I couldn't compete with the folks in the early '80s who would spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to win a $5 trophy in the "cost contained" Formula Ford of SCCA. Are you requiring an equal chance to win under Appendix K in competition with blank check types worldwide in order to have fun? If you have someone to race with, you have achieved the point of vintage racing. If winning is important to you, there are many other venues. I hear there are a couple of openings in F1 today.

[Thomas Haefner]

Hello together
I am a new member in this forum and I find it very interesting here.
Some fellows fellows of the german Forum105.de told me about this
forum and today I subscribed.
I was following the historic/non historic discussion over here and thought
its a good time to tell something about my opinion.
I owe a 2000GTV (from 1972) with a GT/Am cylinderhead.
This car strictly follows the homologation rules for 71-76 Group 2
touring cars.I raced this car for many years and had a lot of fun with it.
Horsepower output was very good but somewhere there was a limit.
This head is very rare and we decided not do more modifications on it.
In 2000 (we had a lot of beer) we decided to get a Montreal race ready
and here is the point-he body of the car was completely rusted,damaged
etc. Normally nobody would restore such a body for a street car.Normally it
would have ended on a junkyard.The welding of this body took over 8 month including all modifications for racing.From the beginning it was clear that a Montreal never was a competitive race car.However-the class competitors
in the race series are more modern cars like Alfa 75 etc. and we had to do
big modifications that they do not smoke our a...ses.
What I want to say is that everybody should feel free to build up a car to his demands.If he wants to be strictly historic thats fine.If he wants to do more mods because he likes to smoke modern cars on a track day-why not?
And something else.If somebody would strictly check all the historic cars
which take part at historical races he could take 80% of the cars out.
Everybody tries to get an advance to be ahead of the competitors and sometimes the historical parts limit that.Old brakes,distributors etc.
I know both classes now and personally it makes more fun for me to race with good brakes,good ignitions etc.
Here is a youtube link how the Monti looks now.

YouTube - Alfa Romeo Montreal @ Dynojet Dynamometer

Regards from Germany
Thomas
P.S If I had enough money left over I would have a sequential gearbox.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ciscotex I've got a horrible headache so I'm going to tee off. I am sick to death of holier than thou types who would attempt to define others enjoyment of these wonderful cars according to their own tastes, biases, bigotries, etc. You know the ones, "If it were my car, you should...", etc. Well it ain't your car. When you build it, build it to please yourself. In the meantime, don't rain on someone else's project unless frickin' solicited. I mean you, PSK! We all know where you stand on modifications. It should be EXACTLY as it left the factory, unless it's a modification of which you personally have need or approve of. Didn't your grandmother ever teach you that if you don't have something pleasant to say, keep your mouth shut (or keyboard quiet)?

[NZ1300 Ti]

PSK i'm upset to hear you say that your a New Zealander...for everyone else out there, we're not all like this..

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ1300 Ti PSK i'm upset to hear you say that your a New Zealander...for everyone else out there, we're not all like this..

[ciscotex]

First off, Pete and Vegar, I want to apologize to you for going way over the top in singling you out in my previous comment. It was wrong, and I apologize.

While I disagree with a lot of what Pete writes, I greatly appreciate his (and other Kiwis) strong sense of individuality.

Back to the subject at hand, it seems that most of the roots of our problems stem from the various sanctioning bodies. In the US, the SCCA (under whom all these Alfas originally raced), has gone off and left folks who want to race production derived coupes such as this forum section covers. Tube frames, engine relocations, even some engine transplants are allowed. Pete, your concerns are addressed by all the vintage rules in the US which at least ensure that the cars are more or less period correct. Your concerns about the bastardization of yet another Alfa might be assuaged by the knowlege that the value of your original car just increased.

Using brakes as an example, Vegar's concern about megadollareuropound engines points to an interesting issue. If I remember correctly, the GTAm was homologated with the stock ATE cast iron brakes from the 1750. Subsequently, Alfa updated the homologation with the Lockheed brakes from the Tipo 33. Reproductions of these brakes are not available and originals may as well be machined from gold. My local vintage sanctioning body allows "period available" brakes to be substituted as allowed under the original SCCA rules (which said brakes are free, but were written in 1972) in the GT classes. FIA classes are supposed to be strictly as homologated. The upshot of all of this is that a strictly homologated GTAm is likely never to be seen on the track outside of Monterey or Goodwood. The Porsche aluminum calipers available to sedan racers flex and are very expensive. Modern aftermarket replacements are stiffer, cheaper, and probably safer than the homologated ones and are illegal. This is an example of how strict enforcement of homologation items sometimes increases the cost and decreases the competitiveness of our cars. I have no idea how to resolve this conundrum.

In case you haven't guessed, I tend to be a big tent kind of guy. I really want to see these beautiful old cars run outside of a couple of events worldwide per year. If strict enforcement of homologation keeps cars from participating due to the unavailability/ cost of parts, then I am poorer for the lack of seeing them. This is the reason for the previous comment about working with the sanctioning body to revise inequitable rules. In the meantime, recognize that all of racing is beset with folks who will spend any amount to essentially buy a trophy. Find someone to race with, and get the testosterone flowing. That's the real point of racing. Enjoy the journey.

Again, I apologize for personalizing my previous comments.

Paul

[ciscotex]

Thomas,
Love the sound of your car. Thanks for posting.

Paul

[vegar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ciscotex First off, Pete and Vegar, I want to apologize to you for going way over the top in singling you out in my previous comment. It was wrong, and I apologize.