GTAm

[alfa_chan]

They do ship to US, don't they?

If not, it's a pretty good reason to make a phone call to my extended family members over in Australia.

THX for the link Pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSk http://www.beninca.com.au/special_parts.htm Pete

[Alfaross69]

Takis,
Not to put to fine a point to your notion that the alfa 75 TS head is a copy of a GTAm head but they are only similar.Conceptually the narrow included valve angle and porting is close to the GTAm head compared to the earlier wide angle that we all have. But there are many differences such as the distributor drive on the front of the head (the 155 head is also similar but has another distributor drive on rear of head as this was a transverse FWD installation(still trying to verify this location) Correction the 155 head has no distributors front or back as it had remote firewall ignition modules and crank triggered ignition,this makes for a cleaner look to front of head, closer in looks to original GTAm head),casting ribbing at front of heads, etc. See the GTAm engine photos that Jim K. posted. Also the monoblock cylinders are also different looking betwen Jim K.'s original and Benica's monoblock cylinder. It looks as if there has been further development as there appears to be water cooling holes drilled between cylinders,Beninca quoted me 3500.00 AUS just for the cylinder bores.I won't be buying one any time soon.Since you can't get a real GTAm head (possible but unlikely) and you are likely to use one from a TS then why not just transplant the more modern TS engine with its attendant technology.This engine is very affordable (used) whole and a separate head alone would most likely be most of the cost of a whole engine anyway. Engines 800.00-1200.00 (here) depending on source and your wrangling or more money(1500.00 +shipping) direct from suppliers such as Italspeed. Performance should be greater today after 35 years of development and since everyones dyno figures are different (then and now) and you will never be as "able" as any hot engine to fully utilise (easier to make a fast car but more difficult to improve driver skills to fully utilise engine potentials,no insult,I think most schools will tell you to improve driver skills before spending gobs of money on the car especially if it's for your personal use.) that last 10-20 hp differential figures of the ultimate GTam setup. (208-240) depending on written sources and claims from website comments. Jim K says Autodelta quoted that 208 was their best figure and other readings indicated Chiti was quoting max rpm 1000-1500rpm lower than later race cars were getting in Australian race cars.(careful combing of site such as GTV.org site) Wide range of figures to be sure. Lucas guillotine slide assy (is beautiful and expensive)or Spicas were used by Autodelta.What makes a GTAm? only the ones by Autodelta? or the additional GTAm's of many privateers and their specs?, which are all GTam's to me. Short of the few that AD raced and the private entries(using GTAm kits) that were raced at that time all others are replicas(or continuing production,age old argument). Seems to me that since all GTAm entries were different from car to car then meeting the basic specs qualifies it as a GTAm. A modern EFi system (there are a few versions,TWM etc.) like throttle body injection has much better control the only argument is the mechanical vs.electronic aspects for the rules of vintage but if you're on the street use EFI(there is HP to be gained here at a cost). If you are not set on truly copying the look then the complete EFI on a TS seems to solve lot of problems(cost availability flexibility etc) or go to the aftermarket EFI for a simpler look(TWM or similar).Ultimately I question (for myself) the dogged determination to use monoblock,since it's hidden,and was used to stiffen the block and to allow the respacing of the bores of the early 1750 blocks that were used. Careful reading indicates that there were 2 monoblocks one for early 1750 and one for later 2 liter blocks (Beninca?). If you don't use an actual GTam head, then the better block of the TS is already stronger thru its redesign offsetting the value of a monoblock allowing for reliabilty on a fully developed version for max power. The block is mostly hidden anyway and less of a giveaway than the head itself.I too am trying to make a as close as possible GTAm. Just some food for thought.

separate issue:
I'd like a more complete discusion on 1800 cc engines.Is a 1750 really 1778 cc. I understood that 2 liters don't rev as well as the 1750 because longer strokes are more torquey but don't spin as quickly. PSk corrected saying the stroke is the same, I too thought it was longer but stand corrected then.Total mass might be one reason for less spin happiness. My reading is that 1750 were monoblocked to change bore spacings (one reason) to get to the larger bore of the 2L class (changed to 2.5L in '71 Trans-Am,but no GTAm's).This required offset piston pins etc. Once 2L. blocks were introduced then it changed need for bore respacing. After consulting several GTAm owners I've been told that there only a very few 1750 GTAm's almost all were 2L. yes based on 1750 block until 2L block came thus the need for 2 different monoblock(monosleeve) Isn't this why 1750 cranks can't be used on 2l blocks. If someone is saying that actual cc figures for a GTAm 2L. is different from standard 2L. engine spec's, I'll buy that. Somebody is trying to confuse me? Still learning from all you pros.
Thanks Ross

[Alfaross69]

Takis and others ,
a mini warning on light weight parts. In many vintage racing classes there is a weight limit and I see cars with bolt in weights to meet minimums of class weight. Drivers have told me there is no advantage to lightweight door panels since they have to add weight anyway (30 lbs +-). They are more fragile, crack out where they meet metal and cost more.
ROSS

[borrani]

Hi Ross,
From what I've read, the GTAm was born a 1750 GTAm, it used a bored out version of the then-current 1779cc engine. When the 2000 GTV came out, they simply changed the name of the car to 2000 GTAm for marketing reasons, same motor as before, a bored out version of the 1779cc motor. 84.5mm bore x 88.5mm stroke for 1985cc. The standard 2.0 is 84x88.5 for 1969cc.

Regarding revability of a 1750 vs 2000? Both have the same stroke. I have driven Wes Ingram prepared 2.0 motors that bury the tach as easily as my 1600 GTA, so I really don't buy into that '1750 revs better than a 2000'.

I know extremely stressed 2.0 motors are prone to cracking their liners, so perhaps the monoblock was an attempt to beef up the webbing around the liner's weaker points.

Cheers!

Steve S.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by borrani I know extremely stressed 2.0 motors are prone to cracking their liners, so perhaps the monoblock was an attempt to beef up the webbing around the liner's weaker points. Cheers! Steve S.

[Alfaross69]

Steve and Pete,
Thanks for steering me right again. I went and reread my copy of Dana Loomis's compilation and know where I got off track. I was confused between "as early as '68 GTA's may have been prepped with the 1750 motors bored out to the 1985 figure and the 1750 GTAm being all 2 liters but then that conflicts with the notion that there were 2 different monoblocks so I've got to scour to where I recently saw that reference. It's always fun tracking the Alfa stuff .There's a lot of loose info and opinions from lots of sources and it can't all be true?
I read where single liners have been machine flattened to nest together to accomplish bore respacing.This seems ultimately unreliable to me. As for closing in the wet deck of the block, I've always wondered why this wasn't done myself. Isn't/weren't, as I remember, stepped liners/block/head a technique oft used by drag race guys as a matter of course on some engines since they were rebuilt so often . There is also o-ringing concept. I wonder if you could weld a plate with holes for the liners across/between the block walls and have liners protrude above that the required amount.
Thanks,

[emr5503]

From the '77 Performance Options Catalog:
PN # 654.61.003,Monosleves, Model/Type: GTAm, Remarks:84.5 bore(not for 2000 block).
There was also a monosleve, PN# 654.26.002 for a "1900", 86.0 Bore (for 1600 Block).

You could also buy prepared monosleve "crankcases":
PN # 10500.01.010.AD/GR5, Model/Type: "1900", 86.0 bore x 82
or
PN # 10551.01.99, Model/Type:GTAm, 84.5 bore x 88.5 (not for 2000 block).

Page 39 shows "GTAm" Engine - 220 BHP with the following highlights:
A. Head with 60 degree valve angle, integral manifold.
B. Lucas injection system as alternate to Spica.
C. Dual ignition Marelli distributor.
D. Electron alloy deep sump: sump bottom.
E. New header set for "Group II" head.
F. "Guillotine" throttle slide assembly.
G. Dynamic inlet air plenum with integrally moulded air horns and nozzles.
H. "4 into 1" monosleve, 84.5 bore inside special block.

A previous year's catalog (I think '71) shows 7 different prepared cyl. heads available.
1. GTAm & "1900", valve angle 60 degrees with integral manifold, twin ign.
2. GTA jr., same as above, inlet 45 dia., exhaust 41 dia., 60 degree valve angle.
3. GTA twin plug, 90 degree valve angle.
4. GTA jr., 90 degree, single plug, prepared
5. GTA jr., 90 degree, twin plug.

6. 1750, 90 degree valve angle ( twin plug).
7. 2000, 80 degree valve angle ( twin plug).
"Run what you brung".
Ed

[sono veL.O.ce]

Some people have used piano wire to better secure the liners, I'd love to hear more about it.

[Alfaross69]

Ed,
Fantastic information. What company was this catalog Autodelta?

[emr5503]

Alfaross69,
From what I can tell from the '68 ($1.50), '69 ($2.50) & '71 catalogs, they were produced by Alfa Romeo, Inc.
Prices in '71 for complete engines, Autodelta prepared for racing:
GTA w/Webers, $3,250
GTAm w/Lucas, 60 degree head, $8,828
Type 33, 4 L,V8,Lucas, dry sump, CanAm, $18,000.
The Competition Advisory Service (CAS) manual was available thru AROC. Has lots of good info, such as specs for o-ringing the liners for piano wire & valve stems for circlips to keep the shims from coming off.
Ed

[camcar77]

I have a set of gtam original autodelta wheels tipo 33 what are they worth I had a offer for 8 grand for them but I was told not to let them go for that what is a realistic price for them

[mezzeta]

camcar77
8k sounds pretty good to me, I would only use an original set for show anyway and go with a re-pro set for competition. Just my 2 Euros worth. Bruce

[Tubolare Zagato]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mezzeta camcar77 8k sounds pretty good to me, I would only use an original set for show anyway and go with a re-pro set for competition. Just my 2 Euros worth. Bruce

[camcar77]

Do you know if that gtam injection is still for sale

[Tubolare Zagato]

Takis,

In the end of the summer an event was held in Gubbio, Italy, (40 kms NE of Perugia) the Trofeo Luigi Fagioli. This event started in 1966 and it's a hillclimb. Fantastic race!
One of the participants was Giovanni Bartoli driving an Alfa Romeo GTAm with the number "103" on the doors. I have attached some photos of the car an as you can see it's in fantastic shape. I am sure that this car is an original GTAm and not a replica just because as you can see at the first attached picture the historic techical passport provided by FIA and CSAI states clearly the identity information of the car which makes me believe that this is an original GTAm.

"Model: 1750 GTAm
Type: 10544
Vehicle identity number: 1357933
Engine type: 0548
Year of manufacture: 1969"

The best you could do will be to send to the press office of the event an email message and see if they can bring you in contact with Mr. Bartoli. I am sure that he will be able to provide you with all the adequate information you want as he has a special experience of the car. The email of the press office is:

weborange@inwind.it

I hope that i helped you a bit and i wish that you will build a GTAm as close to the original lady as possible.