GTAm

[Jim K.]

The 16v ebay sale is very puzzling, to say the least:
The head is NOT a 2000 16v head, but the old 1900 16v, of 1965-69 vintage. This head was used ONLY with the 1600 block, with 82mm stroke and 86mm bore and naturally a special 1600 crank with 8 counterweights. The 2000 crank will NOT fit. The block shown in the photos is a 1750 block and the liner shown will NOT fit a 2000 16v block, as the bore centers are different. The Spica shown is the road model, NOT the race unit as the former had only the basic plunger metering unit (front part) and no rear part(with cut-off solenoids,thermostatic actuator etc). The timing cover shown is for a 2000 engine with carbs,not Spica.
If anyone is contemplating using the head for the 2000 motor, be advised you will have to WELD-UP the combustion chambers, in order to align the bore centerlines and then cc the chambers to match. Be aware that this operation is far from easy on a 16v head! Your best bet is to use the 1750 block shown, with a 1750/1800 crank and the monosleeve shown (if it is usable) or a new one (they exist and cost 1300Euros) which will have to be bored to the correct ID (new ID as supplied is ~83mm). As far as pistons go, I don't lnow if the seller has any old 16v ones left, if not,you'll have a hell of a time DESIGNING one and have a set made to order!!.There are a number of parameters to consider, like piston/valve clearances etc. This can prove extremely difficult and you'd better get someone with SERIOUS knowledge to help you (and I'm not talking about your very good, friendly, long-time AR mechanic either,'cause face it, they're not qualified for this). The compression ratio chosen, will have to be commensurate with available fuel and be a function of the cams, which will of course have to be profile-measured in detail.Do not rely on any timing marks on the cam caps, as AR race motors didn't have any, or the ones they had didn't mean crap to most people. Ultimate cam timing and clearances,will depend on cam-profile and intended use (to a smaller extent). If the cam followers are worn out, you will need new ones and they are special, 33mm diameter,not 35mm like the std ones.(Did I hear someone say they'll use the....hydraulic ones from the current engines???They have 33mm OD!)
You can use the timing cover shown, if you want the late type oil filter by short-circuiting the old block outlets. If you definitely want a Spica (you get what you deserve!) you will have to find the appropriate timing cover,pulley and nut.Then, you will have to figure out how to properly set up the linkage to the throttle slide for correct operation (....good luck!!!).Keep in mind that this induction system is always full of air-leaks and requires frequent greasing as it very easily binds, screwing up whatever idle you're trying to set-for a race engine. The Spica will of course have to be recalibrated (to WHAT delivery curve???) and you'll have to MAKE the exhaust manifold, which is 8-4-2-1!!
Yes, you have to make 8 little pipes,merging into 4 pipes and then 2 and so forth. I can probably post a picture to anyone interested in making one and I believe I have the dimensions for the 2000 16v manifold somewhere.
You will also need a std oil pump and 105/116 oil pan also, as well as a 105/116 flywheel (if you use the 1800 crank you can install either one).
The 1900 16v engine,with Spica and dry sump, was supposedly good for ~225hp at ~7200rpm (IF you believe AR, that is!)
Seeing all this, your best bet is to MAKE an intake manifold for carbs, so that you can make the thing run decently, in spite of the cams AND an exhaust manifold to fit your installation. Last but not least, you'll need a distributor with the CORRECT advance curve (???) for this engine.
To end, the MOST important issue is to have large/clear pictures of the head/chambers, to make sure there is absolutely no damage there, as that would be unforgivable and probably irreparable. The head is what is important and the reason someone will buy the rest of the engine too. As a matter of fact, if I was going to buy it , I would only buy the head and work the rest out as outlined above.
Sorry for taking up all this time guys!
Jim K.

[Jim K.]

Oh, while on the subject of engines, there are a few for sale in Europe, not very publicized: There's this store in Italy, selling the following: 33/3 engine (fits Montreal) everything new,~400hp, for 20000Euros. One 155 V6 TI engine (DTM) 2500cc,~440hp, for 15000Euros, one 155BTCC engine (4-cylinder,2000cc,~295hp, 16v) for 14000Euros and a GTAm engine,Alfetta version with carbs and exhaust manifold complete (as used in factory rally cars) for 20000Euros.
Jim K.

[turbolarespider]

Jim
I would think it would be far easier to get a Lucas pump system working with that set up than a SPICA. I met Jim Kinsler once, who told me that he was the only approved Lucas rebuilder in the US. He mentioned that it wasn't all that hard to properly set up a Lucas system.

This is not the first time this engine has been on e-bay. Two years ago it did, and here's what Don Black had to say about it:

"Eric, I would buy it right now if I had the money. It is a group 5 GTA motor, usually 1900 cc and raced in UK. Crank is no problem you can have one made by Moldex in Detroit, or use any stock crank, pistons no problem-can be made locally ( Venolia) either. The dry sump cost about 1200$ alone when new!!!. Head is extremely rare, kind of a Cosworth copy. Missing cam cover can be cast very simply by making foam/epoxy pattern and casting in local small foundry, you have many in area. Look in the old Performance Options catalogs I printed ( 4 editions) or in my Green Book, the part numbers are all shown. Put 3k into this motor and youll have a 12k motor suitable for a trick TZ or GTA. These motors were only run one year in Eu, never legal in Gr 2 in the US.
No secrets all the details in the stuff I had published years ago. Tip: the head/block joint was never gasketed, epoxied. But Id get some gas filled o’ring seals ( common) and cut the sleeve and head for a permanent fix.

Never used in GTAM, only GTA GrV. I had all of the drawings for that trick SPICA pump at one time,as well as some others for the Grv motor, all my archives went to my son Dennis in MA. I have nothing here, only memories. However the motor is well known by those active in that period. I sold a couple here in the States for APBA and SR classes. Two I think, remembering Bill Mitchell bought one and ran it in a FB in Conn."

Very interesting, to me.

Eric

[Jim K.]

Hi Eric,
I agree that its much simpler to set up a Lucas for correct delivery. I dealt with these in F3 engines....15 years ago and I like them very much!(must have something to do with my age, heheh!). As for the GTA 1300 16v version, the head is NOT the same,as the comb. chamber is smaller there. The 2000 Alfetta race 16v is ALSO different because of equal bore spacing.
Here's what someone here in Europe would need to complete the engine:
1) 1750/1800crank
2) Rods
3) Sump
4) Oil pump
5) Ex. manifold
6) Lucas pump?
7) Pistons
8) Valve cover
9) Special distributor
10)EFI timing cover
11)Monosleeve
12)New valve springs
13)Flywheel
For a budget build, items 1,2,3,4,9,10,13 can be had readily for very little money or...nothing for some with enough Alfa junk lying around.
However, items 5,7,8,11 can run up a good size bill, in total about 3300Euros and here is a breakdown: 600E for 5, 1100E for 7, 300E for 8, 1300E for 11. If you decide to use the existing monosleeve (provided you end up with the correct clearance after honing) you save 1300E. The Lucas metering pump is open for pricing,as somecan get it for free, others not. So, we have a total of about 2000E + labor BEST case possible + engine cost(?), or 3300E + labor + eng.cost (with new monosleeve). In both cases, add cost of Lucas and other AR parts. All the above, surmises that the head is in excellent shape, with perfect valves and guides, perfect cams and followers so you won't spend any money there-how possible does this sound for a 37 year old unit?
Its a very nice piece of history to have and the reason I sold my GTAm engine years ago, without putting it in my Alfetta (then).
Re. head gaskets, its true the old Autodelta...S/M deviates used none, relying in hand matched head/block assemblies.People buying these engines today (the GTAm as well) use gaskets. You'd be surprised to find out how many do so, without compensating for CR loss-this IS stupidity!
If, on the other hand, you want to build this engine as it SHOULD be built, the sky's the limit. Carillos and new everything with a total head rebuild, will run up a fair budget but the result would be worth it to many,who are above our everyday bean-counting necessities.
Thats it for now,
Jim K.

[turbolarespider]

Jim
When I originally e-mailed the owner, and then talked to him at the '03 Convention in Ft. Lauderdale, he mentioned he was going to build a TS motor, instead of investing money into that engine.

Good decision, as far as I could tell- I think they want $5k for the pile of parts, and I actually figure another $5k to be close= 225hp. Maybe 240.

Vs. a LOT less in doing a modern TS conversion to "old" tech with Webers and a distributor= 220hp if well done.

Or follow your instruction for a little less and get 200hp.

The fun thing- as I've mentioned before in this very long thread, Jim Steck and I are planning on doing a TS conversion, and adapt a SPICA pump to it. Although, if I were smart, I would talk to Mr. Kinsler again about using the Lucas injection... Too bad smart is not in the books

Eric

[Jim K.]

Eric,
Building a TS is a clever choice, as it is not a rare and unique engine if you ever blow it to bits! (always in the cards when racing). A few years back, in the UK, Rossi Engineering (Roberto Giordanelli), built a few race TS's on carbs with 220hp. I believe if you want to go higher tech with 4-throttle plate programmable EFI, you can start flirting with 230+. And all this with moderate cost! (Still, the BTCC engine sounds damn good at 295hp with 13000Euros!)
Jim K.

[Alfaross69]

Quoted from Loomis article "Later works on the racing coupes list by Adriaansens and Tabucchi list 14-15 chassis numbers of US model 1750 GTV known to have been converted to GTAms by Autodelta."
Does anyone have A&T's publication? and would you list the numbers of the 14 or 15 chassis here?
TIA
Ross

[Alfaross69]

Quote:

Originally Posted by genericwood Jim, I have not idea the correct spelling. But doesn't the 1967 date bring the whole museum sign into question? My '69 GTV race car was certainly never a GTAm, but with the same grill and the same flares, it looks much the same! Now if I could just get some 13" wheels to fit over the lower ball joint on my drop spindles! Erik

[papajam]

The stepnose is not defined by model or year. Fusi lists 920 1750 GTVs being produced in 1967 and the stepnose was alive with the Series 2 GT 1300 Junior in mid 1970.
The simplest reason for the 1967 sign at the museum is that the car is a prototype. The dates of production manufacture will always lag behind. Would one question a 1967 sign next to a Montreal prototype? Same thing could apply to the GTAm.
Another reason is that Alfa could have produced any number of cars and/or parts in 67 and 68 but waited for the 1969 introduction of the 10551 in the US, the car on which the GTAm is based, so that it could be raced 'legally'.

[Alfaross69]

Jim,
Okay 920 then. I was aware that the Junior (2 headlite and grille detail differences?) confuses things a bit. I have a 73 2000 GTV (115) that I was going to make into 2 headlite with correct grille to get in under the rule and it would look like a Junior without the stepnose which as you point out came both ways if I read it right and it would be continuing production. I even scaled down the rear lights (definitely better looking) to at least get it closer looking to the rules but I had to accept the heavier stronger bodyshell for racing purposes (my justification for what I had) but time has marched on and with the advent of 2.5 Challenge this no longer is an issue as we can run flares that were previously precluded. Fortunately I have aquired a numbers correct 1750 for a GTAm replicar.
You might very well be correct as to Factory Museum sign especially as the sign is probably a much later retrofit.
It reminds me of the Corvette 40 year Anniversary held at the Palm Springs Vintage weekend in 1992. 1953 was the first year for 'vettes I think but Chevrolet considered the one year development of the "mule" car during 1952 as part of the equation and claimed the earlier start date.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbolarespider Jim "Eric, I would buy it right now if I had the money. It is a group 5 GTA motor, usually 1900 cc and raced in UK. Crank is no problem you can have one made by Moldex in Detroit, or use any stock crank, pistons no problem-can be made locally ( Venolia) either. The dry sump cost about 1200$ alone when new!!!. Head is extremely rare, kind of a Cosworth copy. Missing cam cover can be cast very simply by making foam/epoxy pattern and casting in local small foundry, you have many in area. Look in the old Performance Options catalogs I printed ( 4 editions) or in my Green Book, the part numbers are all shown. Put 3k into this motor and youll have a 12k motor suitable for a trick TZ or GTA. These motors were only run one year in Eu, never legal in Gr 2 in the US. No secrets all the details in the stuff I had published years ago. Tip: the head/block joint was never gasketed, epoxied. But Id get some gas filled o’ring seals ( common) and cut the sleeve and head for a permanent fix. Never used in GTAM, only GTA GrV. I had all of the drawings for that trick SPICA pump at one time,as well as some others for the Grv motor, all my archives went to my son Dennis in MA. I have nothing here, only memories. However the motor is well known by those active in that period. I sold a couple here in the States for APBA and SR classes. Two I think, remembering Bill Mitchell bought one and ran it in a FB in Conn." Very interesting, to me. Eric

[camcar77]

Dear group

I recently started working on a gtam rebuild. The engine Is a 2000 gtam of 1972 I pulled the engine down and found it to be as new inside but the only thing that bothers me is that the piston wall clearance seems wide can anyone tell me what the right clearance is the engine has the original gtam borgo pistons ?


Cheers John :

[turbolarespider]

John
While I would love to asnwer your question, I can't

But please post pictures!!! You might be one of the only GTAm owners on this board right now.

Eric

[camcar77]

High Eric

I have tried posting shots but have no computer skills whatsoever give me your email I will send them to you and if you can post them I have many interesting things to show think everyone on this board should see that it is all about the engine not anything else

Cheers John