HELP WANTED--1970 Giulia Super Clutch Master Cylinder

[JOEBMW]

Hello Everyone,

I need help. I recently bought a 1970 Giulia Super. I rebuilt the carbs and got her running very good. But now the clutch master cylinder broke. I havnt even driven her yet!!! I have been searching for a rebuild kit or a new unit but have run into some problems.

I ordered the rebuilt kit from internationalauto.com, but it is not the right one. Why? Because once i put the round seal around the piston i can not insert the piston back into the cylinder. I believe that the piston expands the seal and thereby not allowing me to insert the piston.

What should i do? I contacted Carl at internationalauto but he said that the kit i got should work and it is the only one that would work. And for more bad news, a new unit will not be in untill Dec. or January!!!

Someone Help!!!!

[twoliterlover]

Joe (BMW?): Two matters -- did you put in new brake fluid? And did you use Castrol or some American stuff that ruined the seals? Second, what is the system -- Ate or the old Girling. If the latter, then the Kit from Lucas Girling is #1974/xx (most of subsequent number immaterial since only a couple basic parts - a rear rubber cut off cup to block return when pressed, a small spring, and large front seal -- and a bellows for exterior are basic and fit universally). If the kit you have was one of those, then you have put in a couple too many parts (as it sounds like from you description of problem). Look at it again realistically and leave out a rear plastic piece. But if you used the wrong brake fluid I suspect you will have to rebuild most of system. And finally, a 1970 has to be European Version. In 1969 they came out with first of Spica units in US to pass emissions. And they did not sell Alfa again in US until 1971 with an upgraded Spica system. Your engine has carburetors, you say, so I suspect it is imported with European specs. Must be nice car. I hope you get your brakes to work so you can finally drive a real car (and forget that BMW stuff). Jay.

[Bill S]

Hi Joe,

As Jay said, you must have a european version Super. We didn't get any Supers in the States after '67. Just out of curiosity, does your car have the clutch and brake pedals coming up from the floor or down from the firewall? Also, what's the part # of the kit IAP sent you? That might help us get on the right track.

Bill

[JOEBMW]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoliterlover Joe (BMW?): Two matters -- did you put in new brake fluid? And did you use Castrol or some American stuff that ruined the seals? Second, what is the system -- Ate or the old Girling. If the latter, then the Kit from Lucas Girling is #1974/xx (most of subsequent number immaterial since only a couple basic parts - a rear rubber cut off cup to block return when pressed, a small spring, and large front seal -- and a bellows for exterior are basic and fit universally). If the kit you have was one of those, then you have put in a couple too many parts (as it sounds like from you description of problem). Look at it again realistically and leave out a rear plastic piece. But if you used the wrong brake fluid I suspect you will have to rebuild most of system. And finally, a 1970 has to be European Version. In 1969 they came out with first of Spica units in US to pass emissions. And they did not sell Alfa again in US until 1971 with an upgraded Spica system. Your engine has carburetors, you say, so I suspect it is imported with European specs. Must be nice car. I hope you get your brakes to work so you can finally drive a real car (and forget that BMW stuff). Jay.

[twoliterlover]

It is either a Girling or a Girling knockoff. And it looks like the seal you show is the correct size. It just looks larger since it gets crammed into the bore of the master cylinder and the skirt is what keeps it from leeking. LMA Castrol is brake fluid you need to use. If you could not get the pedal up from the floor I fear your other seals may already be toast, but it might be that the master cylinder just leaked dry. We will both pray the prior owner did not try to use Prestone or Bendix or some American brake fluid that ate out the rubber seals. How bad were those parts in the master cyclinder? The correct Lucas Castrol Girling repair kit is No 1974/xx, and you apparent got it. The two rubber parts crucial to fix master from your kit are clearly visable in your photos. The big rubber seal you said was too big is the right one. You will put the "flair" to the back and carefully fit it into the bore using the proper brake fluid to lubricate it as you work it in -- pressing the lip into the bore without tearing it. But first (1) you will fit the other smaller rubber cup on end of the piston shaft by unclipping and taking that apart. There is also a small spring under that in the kit (should look like a metric spring washer black spring material). That rear cup keep you from pushing the fluid back up into the reservoir when you appy the brake. It shuts off the intake. Replace the small spring if you find it in the kit. If not, be sure the spring is still strong and workable. (2) It is important to be sure the insides of the bore are smooth. I suspect you could handle that with emery cloth and your finger and do that before tearing the big seal trying to put it in. Be sure the flud lubricant on assembly is LMA Castrol to avoid either dryness or any cleaning solvent damage. If you are lucky the wheel cylinders might still be okay. If not get back to me and I will give you contact info for guy in midwest who sells Girling repair kits. I am not sure your brakes on the wheels themselves are disk all way around? At least on the back? If not, do you have double or triple shoes on front? Some of these European versions have different configurations. Lets just hope the kit fixes the problem so you can zoom around in your hot car. Should make you forget your BMW quickly. Jay

[Bill S]

That is the correct kit for the floor mounted clutch master. We only had them in '69 in the states. The IAP catalog indicates the kit is for a Benditalia or Bonaldi master. I just checked my spare Benditalia and it has that same closed "b" symbol as yours has on the side so I assume yours is also Benditalia, not Girling. Looks like IAP still sells the floor mounted clutch master cylinder: $189.50! Did you lubricate the seal with brake fluid as Jay mentioned? It looks like the right part to me.

[JOEBMW]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoliterlover It is either a Girling or a Girling knockoff. And it looks like the seal you show is the correct size. It just looks larger since it gets crammed into the bore of the master cylinder and the skirt is what keeps it from leeking. LMA Castrol is brake fluid you need to use. If you could not get the pedal up from the floor I fear your other seals may already be toast, but it might be that the master cylinder just leaked dry. We will both pray the prior owner did not try to use Prestone or Bendix or some American brake fluid that ate out the rubber seals. How bad were those parts in the master cyclinder? The correct Lucas Castrol Girling repair kit is No 1974/xx, and you apparent got it. The two rubber parts crucial to fix master from your kit are clearly visable in your photos. The big rubber seal you said was too big is the right one. You will put the "flair" to the back and carefully fit it into the bore using the proper brake fluid to lubricate it as you work it in -- pressing the lip into the bore without tearing it. But first (1) you will fit the other smaller rubber cup on end of the piston shaft by unclipping and taking that apart. There is also a small spring under that in the kit (should look like a metric spring washer black spring material). That rear cup keep you from pushing the fluid back up into the reservoir when you appy the brake. It shuts off the intake. Replace the small spring if you find it in the kit. If not, be sure the spring is still strong and workable. (2) It is important to be sure the insides of the bore are smooth. I suspect you could handle that with emery cloth and your finger and do that before tearing the big seal trying to put it in. Be sure the flud lubricant on assembly is LMA Castrol to avoid either dryness or any cleaning solvent damage. If you are lucky the wheel cylinders might still be okay. If not get back to me and I will give you contact info for guy in midwest who sells Girling repair kits. I am not sure your brakes on the wheels themselves are disk all way around? At least on the back? If not, do you have double or triple shoes on front? Some of these European versions have different configurations. Lets just hope the kit fixes the problem so you can zoom around in your hot car. Should make you forget your BMW quickly. Jay

[JOEBMW]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill S That is the correct kit for the floor mounted clutch master. We only had them in '69 in the states. The IAP catalog indicates the kit is for a Benditalia or Bonaldi master. I just checked my spare Benditalia and it has that same closed "b" symbol as yours has on the side so I assume yours is also Benditalia, not Girling. Looks like IAP still sells the floor mounted clutch master cylinder: $189.50! Did you lubricate the seal with brake fluid as Jay mentioned? It looks like the right part to me.

[ossodiseppia]

I would try wrapping something around the piston and seal to compress the seal. Then offer it up to the cylinder and push it in. Think of how you would compress piston rings to insert a piston in a block. I hope that helps.

[JOEBMW]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ossodiseppia I would try wrapping something around the piston and seal to compress the seal. Then offer it up to the cylinder and push it in. Think of how you would compress piston rings to insert a piston in a block. I hope that helps.

[JOEBMW]

Well after many hours of searching and calling places i found a place that acutally has them and they are not rebuilt, they are NOS units. I was quoted $225 for sending my unit out and get rebuilt (they bore it and everything), this NOS unit costed just under $200, so i figured i might as well get the real deal. Hopefully it will get here by this weekend.

Thanks for all the help!!!

[Bill S]

Joe,

That's great! You're gonna love this car. Be sure to post some pictures.

[ossodiseppia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOEBMW Well after many hours of searching and calling places i found a place that acutally has them and they are not rebuilt, they are NOS units. I was quoted $225 for sending my unit out and get rebuilt (they bore it and everything), this NOS unit costed just under $200, so i figured i might as well get the real deal. Hopefully it will get here by this weekend. Thanks for all the help!!!

[twoliterlover]

Clear now that the knock off master cylinder is NOT Girling. And upon closer inspection your system looks more like clutch cylinder of Girling system instead of brake master.

Regardless, it may well be that the bore size changed on these "B whatever" brakes, but still be careful on the brake fuild. Dot 4 is an American Specification, not one geared to natural rubber that was used in Italy a lot longer than we did here. I'd still get in touch with some outfit that has Castrol LMA brake fluid (unless you end up having to do entire system, in which case you might contemplate starting completely over with some silicon system). I recently found a 1964 2600 sprint that had been sitting for many many years. The only thing that still was really up to par was the hydralic system. Discovered the previous owner had problem early with brakes and clutch and was forced to replace all seals with rebuild kits. So he decided problem might be that he was too close to ocean and storing his car in wharehouse on the dock. He thought he would try to use the same same silicon based brake fluid he used in the hyster fork lifts at his shipping company. Certainly worked. Everything else was questionable but all those worked well. I could not understand why the fluid was different color. He showed me the hyster forklift brake fluid can. It was that color and silicon based. He certainly proved a point. But you can't mix and match. I've never had the guts to try it.

Jay