GTA Junior Prices/Marketability

[OldAlfaGuy]

Lurani,

The homologation requirement for SCCA was 1,000 units for a vehicle to be considered a full production model. In other words, Carroll Shelby had to produce at least 1,000 GT 350's for it to be recognized in B Production. Don Yenko had to produce that many Yenko Stingers for it to be accepted in C Production. So the mere fact that the SCCA removed the GTA from B Sedan while allowing the GTA Jr to continue to compete in C Sedan tells us that GTA production was less than 1,000 and GTA Jr production was more than 1,000.

Is it possible you have the numbers switched around? I have seen the production numbers published many times over the years. The numbers were like several hundred 1600 GTA's and over 1,000 1300 GTA Jr's.

NOTE TO ALL AUTHORS: I AM NOT DISPUTING YOUR FACTS. IF WE SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY, IT IS BECAUSE WE ARE IN DIFFERENT WORLDS.

I always felt it was common knowledge that the 1300cc version was more plentiful world-wide. It was certainly raced longer. From an historical perspective, the 1600 GTA was dominant in Europe until the Ford Escort BDA came out, and then it was all over for the Alfa in the European Touring Car Championship series in that class. Alfa stopped racing it and came out with the GTAm, to try to beat the BDA Escort. That made sense production-wise, because the 1600 series cars were being replaced by the 1750 series vehicles anyway. But the 105.51-based GTAm couldn't run with the BDA Escort either.

Meanwhile, Alfa Romeo realized that they could dominate the European Touring Car Championshiop series in the small displacement catagory with a 1300c version of the GTA. And they did, winning their class championship several years in a row. My understanding is that Alfa Romeo never had any intention of producing a 1300cc version of the GTA until the BDA Escort came out and made the 1600cc GTA obsolete. Then it became a matter of having to find a class where they could be competitive, and building a car to the class. All it took was a new crank and piston/rod combo, and -voila- you turn a 1600 GTA into a 1300c GTA Jr! Ingenious and so very cost effective. And then once they had the narrow angle twin plug head and slide throttle injection for the GTAm engineered, they went ahead and homologated that stuff for even more power for the GTA Jr.

I have always found it interesting that Alfa chose to keep the old step nose GTA Jr. in production after the step nose design had been replaced by the newer body design. Using the then-latest body style, they could have made a GTAm Jr, if you will.

OldAlfaGuy

[Alleggerita]

I would say that there is no way that Alfa built anywhere near a 1000 GTAjuniors nor anywhere near that number of GTA's. They couldn't sell enough of those cars for what they were asking for them in the stradale versions, even though there were waiting lists and the need for connections to get one of the race prepped cars - in fact Alfa had difficulties selling GTAjunior stradales even at steeply discounted prices in some markets. On the 1600 I would say that Alfa may have deliberately tried to create a false impression by having chassis # starting with 613001 to about 500 and then very few cars up to the 900 range. They probably did the same thing with the GTAjunior, but spread the serial # range wider, leaving smaller gaps, making it less likely that it would attract attention. I also wouldn't be surprised if they got away with declaring the GTAjunior a derivative of the 1600 and thus getting to a combined number of a 1000 for many race series.Anyway, creative homologation is definitely an Italian forte that goes back a long way ... 6C1750 Testa Fissas and Ferrari GT "omologato"s come to mind. Also, the 1300 and the GTAm, as you point out was definitely a move to avoid direct competition with the Escorts and move into a class that was more competitve. There was another piece in the FIA European Touring Car championship in that the GTA 1600 and the 911 were banned from Group 2 (Special Touring Car)and put into Group 4 (Special GT). Mini Coopers and other stuff were easy prey in the 1300 class and GTAm did rather well against the competition, particularly BMW in Europe as well.

[wmeastman]

Though I am far from certain, I thought the necessary number was 500. I am surprised to hear 1000.

After talking with a guy, Heinz Heinrich, who drove a factory 1600 car in the late sixties as a backup and test driver. I am under the impression that Alfa, and everyone else who could get away with it, fudged the numbers.

I was also told by more than one person familiar with their games, that a bunch of 1600 race cars were given 1300 engines and renumbered to boost the production numbers.

Perhaps I am cynical, but I suspect that when my car was finished, 3/12/69, there were fewer than 465 Juniors in circulation and yet its serial number suggests it was the 465th of that series built. Still, I suppose it is possible.

I suspect that the factory was deliberately sloppy, but then it may be an accident. I am looking at a piece of paper sent to me by R. Benienui (illegible) and typed by his secretary, E. Ruocco (Elvira) and dated 10/24/90. It describes the car as a "Giulia GTA, chassis nr. 105.39.775465"

To me that description is a bit vague. Having inspected the actual car, I am convinced it is a Junior. Maybe they are just loose with their record keeping, but is it even remotely possible that this car got counted twice?

I really don't know, but I could be pursuaded that they might, somehow, be able to justify 465 GTAs by March of '69. It is much harder to believe that they had made and distributed the 1000+ 1600cc cars and were already at 465 on the 1300cc side of things. I think I understand, on paper at least, what a "Giulia GTA" is. And I seem to recognize the "775465" as belonging to the junior series.

But what exactly is a "105.39?" A 1450cc prototypo, er... prototipo maybe!

Hell, I guess we will never know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

Bill

[OldAlfaGuy]

Both Allegerita and Bill make very good points. Looking back 35 years, and trying to remember back that far, who knows what the real situation was, especially regarding things like production numbers and homologation strategies.

I have been a member of both the Alfa Owner Club and the SCCA for 35 years, but I coulld be wrong about the SCCA homologation requirement. 1,000sticks in my mind, but it could have been 500. What I DO remember is that they felt that Alfa had produced enough GTA Jr's, but not enough GTA's. And I also acknowledge that Alfa Romeo may have pulled a fast one over on the SCCA.

What I have always felt to some degree, but has really been driven home to me by this wonderful BB, is there can be no "experts" on Alfa Romeo. Because of the "loosey-goosey" way they did things, there is often no real explanation for what they did. Anyone who claims to be an "expert" is making stuff up sooner or later, or using information that someone else disputes. There are just too many holes that can't be filled with one set of facts. With Alfa's, one must be comfortable not knowing everything. I have many books on Alfa Romeo... but I bought them for the pretty pictures, not the facts within.

Perfect example: The debate will go on forever about what the "m" means in GTAm. I remember when the GTAm came out, and there was debate THEN about what it stood for! Well, if no one knew the answer then, how can we expect to know it today?

Don Black is probably the most knowledgeable person in the US on Alfa Romeo. Years ago I talked to him concerning documentation on an Autodelta car and I can tell you there were times he could not supply every detail, and when he just did not know "why" Alfa did something. He was comfortable with that. We should be, too.

OldAlfaGuy

[wmeastman]

Hear, hear!

By design, I have had to learn to be happy with some degree of ignorance...

Bill Eastman
Stumptown, Oregon

[hagen111]

You may be interested to have a look here as well;
www.furiani.de

Check out the 'fahrzeuge' section and you will find a number of GTA's which have sold recently.

[60sRacer]

Well I for one find this car - that started the thread - just facinating! It's sorta like being a voyuer on a great barn find (even though the originator actually knows about the boxes of bits). And especially interesting as this is one of the true racing alfas (at least it seems so) from the 'days'.

'Bout as attractive a thread as Brock's V8 alfa thread, but more deeply 'true alfa lore'.

I think we're gonna have a great time watching this car go together and grow up. Almost certainly it will get past what I could afford, but for now I'll dream.....

I'm certainly familiar with how 'loosey' Alfa has been on its cars and production data. AFIR, there were rfepeated strikes at the Alfa (Nord) factory in the 65-69 era that left production really hap-hazzard. I personally have had Duettos of very close serial numbers that were made up of very different parts, so my concept is that on the few days they were assembling cars, they were made from shatever was in the parts bins.

For example, my Duetto has the bell housing from a Ti Sedan with colum mounted shift levers - there are big holes in the casting for all the sliding mecanisms (the column shift connected to the shift rods in the FRONT of the tx, not the rear tower). I have no Bexdix power brake unit but a car with a lower serial number that I had did!

Once the cars got to Auto Delta, they REALLY got interesting in creative records. The GTA we campaigned came to us in parts as it wasn't available in the US....

This is gonna be Sooooo much fun.

Please keep us up to date on the state and assembly of the car! Take LOTS of pics if you can.

Robert

[Bjoern Schmidt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleggerita Is this car chassis # 613.124?

[veloce430]

Hi Bill,

Did you notice the post on Bobcor history? Judge Parker had the following:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Further to the last post and for general info, I believe ARI imported 10 Autodelta prepared GTA Jrs that can be documented to some extent or the other. The chassis numbers are:
10559 776124 sold to Dave Davenport
" 775580 sold to Armstrong
" 775511 sold to O'Brien
" 775517 sold to Otto Zipper then to Jeff Kline
" 775477 sold to Rassey Fezzell
Additionally, 2 cars were sold to Gaston Andrey - one (both?) driven by Dave Ammen
If I read J Black's notes correctly, 3 cars were sold through the sales department though there is no record of their Chassis numbers or those of the two bought by Gaston Andrey though, honestly, I have done little to locate them. Their current owners, no doubt, know what they are.
Another comment; I followed the Trans Am Alfas closely as a young man and do not recall them being "outlawed". My memory may well be faulty here but I seem to remember that they ran, in both the Trans Am and in B Sedan, well into the 70's & also well beyond the point of being competitive. Having said that, they had that "Euro prepped, special semi-exotic" look about them and remained the best looking racing sedan right till the end.
Regards, Judge Parker"

My guess is that the 105 39 was just a typo and yours is a 105 59. I assumme that is what is stamped on the firewall? My old car was the ex Jeff Kline car, serial #775517. I wonder if your car is one of the three cars that Don Black's notes referred to as being sold thru the sales dept?

For what it's worth, I've seen Bill's car and parts and it is the genuine deal, almost a sister car to the one I raced from '75 thru '78.

Stu Moss
Portland OR

[wmeastman]

Hi Stu,

Yes, it is a 10559 car, and that is the model number on the firewall tag.

I also assume that the archive records are incorrect because of a typo.

It was ordered through the Sales Dept. by Don Block. I have a copy of the original order. I have since talked with Lew Dowdy who bought the car from Bobcor and he gave me some interesting details about the car and its running gear, in particular.

I have been trying to get reliable info from Bob Cozza, but he claims to have a faulty memory these days and just refers to a fire in NJ that destroyed his records. I have yet to send him pictures of the car, which he believes will jog his memory.

More when that occurs...

Bill Eaastman
Portland, OR

[hagen111]

Any news on this GTA?...I am sure a lot of people are actually working hard behind the scenes to try and get this one in their garage.

[alfazagato]

Hagen111,
Your note has reminded me to re-read this thread and offer the following thoughts and some information gleaned from Rhody Harvey-Bailey, the former Autodelta works driver and the previous owner of my car *775774*. I obviously can't make any comments about the US racing topics.
In no particular order:
My car was made on the 28th June '68 and sold on the 10th August '68. Bill's comments about being able to justify 465 GTAJs by March of '69 seems out of place in comparison with my serial number. As has been previously mentioned there appears to have been very creative totalling of numbers made, see below.
Harvey-Bailey described my car as a "good one" as it had a modified roll cage which stiffened the chassis considerably resulting in a car which was, in his words "much better than the factory cars", and "showed no signs of turning over" or "popping front and rear screens" which the factory cars did all the time. He turned two cars over whilst being a factory works driver.
He implied that the aluminium floored cars were deeply flawed structurally and were in certain cases rebuilt with steel.
R H-B told me that Autodelta never used chassis numbers to identify cars and used the registration number only. Often engines would be swapped between 1300 and 1600 cars and he commented "Autodelta were more concerned in having the white stripe down the side and the dragon on the bonnet than the niceties of engine size". This could well account for double counting and apparent discrepancies in chassis numbers.
I was under the impression that the initials GTAm stood for GT America as by this time the A was no longer lightweight, the GTAm having a steel body.
As to how much are they worth...well, whatever the price, history will tell you that you sold it too cheaply.

[CanAmBob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagen111 Any news on this GTA?...I am sure a lot of people are actually working hard behind the scenes to try and get this one in their garage.

[gtaj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanAmBob I have a good friend that wants an unmolested GTA Jr. and this one looks perfect. Is it still available or gone to a new home? The AOL email address bounced? Bob