GTA Junior Prices/Marketability

[alfazagato]

Robert, Since when has good sense anything to do with perceived values?

[wctouring#7]

Red car??? What are you looking at Robert? The post by Alfa Sport I believe was an example. The only pics by Bill are of the car in white.

[Biscione]

This is the red car shown earlier in this thread - asking price 70.000 Euros:

http://www.mobile.de/SIDtVaa.cEZF7w4...1111241980005&

this yellow gta jr is offered at 55.000 Euros:

http://www.mobile.de/SIDpKs42uxR8tnm...1111193307348&

[Biscione]

The red/yellow car is a Corsa version with wide fenders and wheels; with a narrow angle autodelta cylinder head with Lucas injection. Ready to race for 70.000 euros or about 91,000 USD.

The yellow car is a Stradale with twin plug cylinder head (wide angle), 45 dcoe carbs and appears to have campagnolo magnesium wheels. Ready to drive for 55.000 euros or about 72,000 USD.

[wmeastman]

Robert,

You do raise many excellent points: Caveat Emptor, indeed!

The car has NOT been apart since 1972. I disassembled it, cleaned, inspected, refurburbished when necessary, bagged and labeled everything. Yes, the parts are in boxes -- on shelves in a dedicated spot away from all other projects.

The paint is about a year old, now. The old paint was very, very carefully removed to the aluminum and Glasurit products were used during the repaint. While I have painted a dozen, or so cars, and many motorcycles, I paid a professional restorer who was familar with aluminum bodied cars to do the work. His name is Allen Zorich. He lives and works in Salem, Oregon and is available for detailed discussions on exactly why it costs so much damn money to paint fancy cars. His number is in the book, or I can introduce him.

The first owner was Ken Awes of Sacramento, California. It was ordered through his father-in-law, Carl Block the Alfa Dealer in Oakland, at the time. Ken raced the car on the West Coast, successfully as I understand it, and sold it two years later to Bobcor.

I know little of the Bobcor history except that they painted it "their" red (sadly, a thick gooey layer of cheap enamel was sprayed over an unprepared substrate. The good news is that it was overmasked and so had almost no overspray damage) and found 1300cc cars to be uncompetitive and so sold it quickly. That decision got the car parked in 1972 and may have saved its life.

The engine has been rebuilt, likewise the tranny. The engine was tested on a stand, the tranny was used for a month in my Giulietta Abnormale. The differential was inspected and some pitting of the pinion causes concern, but the final ratio is unknown at this time, so a replacement is dependant upon desired application. If you are using it primarily for short courses, you may well like the ratio and put up with a little howling. I'm just saying...

These are a few of the odd bits, or usual bits, actually:

-- Mods to body made with ball peen hammer (air box clearance and rear tire clearance); battery relocated to trunk,
--Active airbox with airhorns and cold air pickup,
-- Headers,
-- Magnesium deep sump, cam cover, bell housing, trans turret,
-- Close-ratio, drilled gearset,
-- Guibo cage,
-- Competition street exhaust,
-- (4) 14x7” wheels (Note: I still have the original Dunlop tires it was delivered with)
-- special spindles and reinforced suspension tie bar
-- dual circuit brakes,
-- limited slip ZF differential and shafts, drilled/lightened,
-- Sliding block,
-- Competition steering wheel,
-- Competition solo seat (rear seats required for sedan class rules, but no passenger seat),
--FIA homologation papers



Missing/Incorrect/Lost:

-- Oil cooler (a bigger, better one had been mounted for racing, which does exist),
-- Aluminum windshield trim was removed when windshield clipped to body as per regulations (those holes have been filled),
-- Full racing cage welded in at USA delivery to satisfy rules (this does stiffen body and prevent body flex and consequent loosening of aluminum panel rivets)

I have the original order sheets, invoices, disclaimer that this car not be used on public roads and the FIA homologation papers. I do have some pictures of the car on the Alfa stand at the SF Auto show when new, and a few of the car in use at Vacaville and Laguna Seca. I would welcome any other contributions I could get. At least one year it was raced with 17cs, in matching green, on the body behind the doors. So, if anyone has programs with Ken Awes name or pictures of a white car, green markings and Koni, Castrol, and SCCA stickers on it, I will happily fund their reproduction.

The car is not corroded and the body has been braced with a full race cage since it got to the states. The rivets are tight. Most of the Juniors... No, all of the Juniors I have inspected or heard of had steel pans and alloy skins. There are rumors that some used aluminum trunk floors, but I am not certain that this was the case. I would never presume to be an expert, though I have paid attention to the subject for 20 odd years. I welcome enlightenment -- and I'd rather not climb mountains to receive it!

As to my experience, abilities, and integrity, I have little to say. You might begin to peel that onion by asking around a little bit. I won't stand on a soapbox in my defense. Lets say that I have never been called a hack.

Any buyer, of any car [or basket case], should inspect the prospective purchase in person as an expert, or with an expert. Documentation is, indeed, helpful -- as are character references. A close personal inspection should quickly dispell any notions of misrepresentation.

To be honest, I have never particularly liked GTVs. They don't fit me very well unless I change the seat. They are kind of hard to see out of and they seem to have alot of wind noise. I have a fondness for Supers, though. So, I was not initially very excited by this GTAj, but it has been growing on me. I have had the pleasure of driving a few, now, and they are MUCH better than GTVs. It is going to be a nice car.

I am not trying to sell the car -- yet. I raised the issue of value because people are beginning to wave handfuls of cash in my face. It is unnerving! When this car goes away, I want to be sure that it gets a good, loving home. Though auctions might be the best way to maximize revenues this is not about net income.

My personal involvement with motorsports has very little to do with making money, and way more to do with spending money! Kidding aside, I just love machines, and I settled on owning Alfas several decades ago. It was an evolutionary journey beginning with bicycles, scooters, motorcycles, muscle cars, MGs, Healeys, BMWs, and Porsches before discovering the unique blend of design, engineering, and ergonomics that go into many Italian contraptions.

Much of my pleasure is received through the process of fixing things, which is after all, my nature. This "thing" is unusual and interesting. I am at the assembly stage. This is the fun part. All you guys who fix things will understand me when I say how pleasant it is to put properly prepared machines back together. I get warm and fuzzy just thinking about it.

[Does anyone else have a chair in the shop where they gaze at the projects, plan the work, and bask in warm glow of progress?]

My hectic work life has kept this project waiting for a long time, but its condition far from any proof of entropy. Someone asked me why I would sell it, since it is so cool. Well, I guess I might have some chronic personality disorder, but once I finish a project, I must use it or get bored. I happen to know that there is little likelihood of me racing this car in any systematic way.

And there is always another project!

Bill

P.S. BTW, this group is great. I appreciate the honesty and passion!

[OldAlfaGuy]

It may not matter or be significant to the possible sale of your car, but there are problems about the Bobcor part. First, "his color" was yellow. The GTA's he raced in Trans Am and the Montreal he attempted to race were all painted a deep yellow. I'm not saying he did not paint your car red. But he did paint his race cars yellow back then. Perhaps he bought the car for resale, not to race.

Also, it does not ring true that he found the car uncompetitive. Back in the early '70's, the GTA Jr ran in C sedan and was at the top of its class. I think just about anyone who ran a GTA Jr in SCCA Nationals with intent to qualify for the Runoffs did in fact qualify. Frank Carney (the Pizza Hut guy), Dick Davenport, Rasey Feezell, Bruce Perry, Madison Smith to name a few. There were others whose names slip my mind. Besides, I don't think Bob Cozza ever ran in C Sedan anyway. More on that below.

Here's a bit of GTA/GTA Jr history in the US: the 1600 GTA was initially approved for racing in SCCA in B Sedan. But after a couple of years, the SCCA outlawed it because Alfa Romeo could never substantiate that it had built enough of them to be considered a full production model. SCCA approved it for B Sedan subject to verification that at least 1,000 units had been built. Naturally, that verification never came because Alfa never built that many GTA's. On the other hand, Alfa DID produce enough 1300 GTA Jr's for it to be legal in C Sedan. In fact, some people who had raced GTA's until they were outlawed converted the engine from 1600cc to 1300c so they could continue to race, but in C Sedan instead of B Sedan. Bruce Perry did that.

The irony of all of that is that, for SCCA Club Racing, the GTA WAS imported and sold in the US by Alfa Romeo, but the GTA Jr was not. Alfa Romeo did bring in some Autodelta-prepared GTA Jr race cars, but never sold street versions in the US. So the model that WAS sold here was not legal to race, and the model that was legal to race was never sold here. Go figure.

Now here is a twist. Although SCCA pulled the GTA from B Sedan amatuer racing, it continued to allow it to race in the Trans Am series. Bob Cozza focused on the Trans Am series, not amatuer B Sedan (or C Sedan for that matter). He usually ran two GTA's in Trans Am. So if he had purchased a 1300GTA Jr back in the early '70's, he would have probably done so with the thought of switching the engine out to a 1600 to run in the Trans Am. Or like I said earlier, maybe he bought it to re-sell it. Also, I can assure you that he didn't buy an Alfa race car not knowing whether or not it was competitive in a given class. The key to all of this is the Competition Logbook issued by SCCA for the car. Not only will it show if and when Bob Cozza raced it, but it will be a critical piece of documentation of the racing history of the car.

Bill, I'm not saying you made up the Bobcor details. What I am saying is that somebody along the line probably took a stab at filling in the blanks themselves and guessed wrong on the details. Your car will no doubt be given more scrutiny than you ever thought possible. You're going to run into people who will want to know about the threads on every nut and bolt on the car. But, as you know, that comes with the "collector car" territory. By the end of the process, all of the correct details will be figured out. My thoughts and recollections may help straighten out some of them.

OldAlfaGuy

[alfina]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biscione The red/yellow car is a Corsa version with wide fenders and wheels; with a narrow angle autodelta cylinder head with Lucas injection. Ready to race for 70.000 euros or about 91,000 USD. The yellow car is a Stradale with twin plug cylinder head (wide angle), 45 dcoe carbs and appears to have campagnolo magnesium wheels. Ready to drive for 55.000 euros or about 72,000 USD.

[lurani]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldAlfaGuy It may not matter or be significant to the possible sale of your car, but there are problems about the Bobcor part. First, "his color" was yellow. The GTA's he raced in Trans Am and the Montreal he attempted to race were all painted a deep yellow. I'm not saying he did not paint your car red. But he did paint his race cars yellow back then. Perhaps he bought the car for resale, not to race. Also, it does not ring true that he found the car uncompetitive. Back in the early '70's, the GTA Jr ran in C sedan and was at the top of its class. I think just about anyone who ran a GTA Jr in SCCA Nationals with intent to qualify for the Runoffs did in fact qualify. Frank Carney (the Pizza Hut guy), Dick Davenport, Rasey Feezell, Bruce Perry, Madison Smith to name a few. There were others whose names slip my mind. Besides, I don't think Bob Cozza ever ran in C Sedan anyway. More on that below. Here's a bit of GTA/GTA Jr history in the US: the 1600 GTA was initially approved for racing in SCCA in B Sedan. But after a couple of years, the SCCA outlawed it because Alfa Romeo could never substantiate that it had built enough of them to be considered a full production model. SCCA approved it for B Sedan subject to verification that at least 1,000 units had been built. Naturally, that verification never came because Alfa never built that many GTA's. On the other hand, Alfa DID produce enough 1300 GTA Jr's for it to be legal in C Sedan. In fact, some people who had raced GTA's until they were outlawed converted the engine from 1600cc to 1300c so they could continue to race, but in C Sedan instead of B Sedan. Bruce Perry did that. The irony of all of that is that, for SCCA Club Racing, the GTA WAS imported and sold in the US by Alfa Romeo, but the GTA Jr was not. Alfa Romeo did bring in some Autodelta-prepared GTA Jr race cars, but never sold street versions in the US. So the model that WAS sold here was not legal to race, and the model that was legal to race was never sold here. Go figure. Now here is a twist. Although SCCA pulled the GTA from B Sedan amatuer racing, it continued to allow it to race in the Trans Am series. Bob Cozza focused on the Trans Am series, not amatuer B Sedan (or C Sedan for that matter). He usually ran two GTA's in Trans Am. So if he had purchased a 1300GTA Jr back in the early '70's, he would have probably done so with the thought of switching the engine out to a 1600 to run in the Trans Am. Or like I said earlier, maybe he bought it to re-sell it. Also, I can assure you that he didn't buy an Alfa race car not knowing whether or not it was competitive in a given class. The key to all of this is the Competition Logbook issued by SCCA for the car. Not only will it show if and when Bob Cozza raced it, but it will be a critical piece of documentation of the racing history of the car. Bill, I'm not saying you made up the Bobcor details. What I am saying is that somebody along the line probably took a stab at filling in the blanks themselves and guessed wrong on the details. Your car will no doubt be given more scrutiny than you ever thought possible. You're going to run into people who will want to know about the threads on every nut and bolt on the car. But, as you know, that comes with the "collector car" territory. By the end of the process, all of the correct details will be figured out. My thoughts and recollections may help straighten out some of them. OldAlfaGuy

[Alleggerita]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfina Has anyone seen those 2 cars? Well, i did. I saw one of them years ago and both 3 month ago. The 16V wide body car (with a 1600 GTA chassis nr and 4 bolt wishbone take on on the front axle) is miles away from "race ready" and it looks like it ran years ago the last time. In my mind you have to do mayor work.

[kengta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurani Hi, How many cars had to be produced of the 1300 GTA Jr's to be legal in C Sedan? According to literature (Tabucchi, Fusi) there were only 449 cars built of the GTA 1300 J. Or do You have other statistics? Lurani

[Max Banks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfina Has anyone seen those 2 cars? Well, i did. I saw one of them years ago and both 3 month ago. The 16V wide body car (with a 1600 GTA chassis nr and 4 bolt wishbone take on on the front axle) is miles away from "race ready" and it looks like it ran years ago the last time. In my mind you have to do mayor work. The narrow yellow one looks better, because it was cosmeticaly done in the last 2 years. Both cars are offered for a long time on several auctions in Germany and are not sold, both cars have the take on for the clutch fluid reservoir on the left motor wall. Question: Did both have the same teribble accident that those motor walls have to be changed from original? Judge yourself. Wake up if you think you can get a race ready 16V GTA for 70.000 Euro. If you want a solid GTA (carburettor) racecar with 99% liability and no work to do ask your banker for 85.000 to 120.000 Euro. I have not seen a good projekt that in the end will cost less than that. Or do you like to race with soft and bended bodyshells that were racecars almost all there life? With that kind of money you should look at any GTA a with a real GTA specialist to know what kind of investment is following after the purchase.

[italcarguy]

I think a lot of people are jumping the gun on the value of this car. People are clearly confusing 1600 GTA and 1300 GTA Jr. prices. While still being valuable and sought after, 1300 GTA Jr.'s don't fetch as much as a 1600 GTA. The best thing the owner can do is assemble the car and in the meantime, research the cars history. When it's done, he'll be able to get a more accurate value and properly market his car.

[justcallmefred]

Two good thoughts on this topic- Bobcor loves the yellow paint- only a few yrs. ago we saw them take a car from CA and do little more than paint and sticker it and add $40K to the price! Jr.s are worth less typically but sometimes it comes down to the individual case. With this car again the Autodelta flag is being waved- are there pap