Alfa Giulia Q Head 2 head vs everything (in the class) - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
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Alfa Giulia Q Head 2 head vs everything (in the class)

Quite new video testing, with interesting results.

Still they are saying the Alfa has a Ferrari derived engine, well..


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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 10:33 PM
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Interesting. Do doubt or disbelieve that there could be a Ferrari based engine in the new Giulia?

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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 01:27 AM
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[EDIT]The group, not[/EDIT] Ferrari, not Alfa Romeo or FIAT or Lancia or Maserati, designed the engine. We have to get over this as upsetting that it is.

I also believe a Ferrari model will soon use this engine.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 04:10 AM Thread Starter
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Interesting. Do doubt or disbelieve that there could be a Ferrari based engine in the new Giulia?
First of all its nice that the New Alfa is up there with the best in class and in this test even beating them in many respects!

With regards to origins of the engine, at the introduction it was said Alfa got a little help from Ferrari in constructing this car. Then in some technical info it was stated that the engine was Ferrari derived. So what does all this mean?

In another link here, what could be proved without doubt is that the car was constructed by two engineers who were transferred to Alfa from Ferrari. A body project leader and an engine specialist. The V6 engine has similar architecture as the Ferrari California-T V8, but then Alfa says the V6 is their own construction. So how much could the Ferrari engineer take with him from Ferrari? Its hard to know based on known facts today.

Maybe some insiders could come forward with technical info and engine photos to make it possible to decide on this?

I collected some engine photos available on the V6 engine and V8 engine to compare here. If more photos and technical data on cylinder distances and valve size it woould be possible to say the engines are related or not!

https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/feature...in-development

Could you fit an Ferrari F154 engine in the new Giulia Quadrifoglio?

Here the Secrets of the V6 engine by Alfa engineer Gianluca Pivetti, ex from Ferrari. The Alfa is actually more advanced than the Ferrari as it has cylinder deactivation and Ferrari has not. Translated from Italian.

http://www.evomagazine.it/i-segreti-...glio-evo-60977



The secrets of the motor v6 alfa romeo giulia cloverleaf


An unusual greed by FCA in providing gluttonous technical data in the press kit, prompted us to have a chat with the engineer, Pivetti, head of the petrol engines for the new Giulia, including the abundant V6 Quadrifoglio. Gianluca Pivetti has spent several years at Ferrari, as responsible for the V12 engine development project before and then 154 (the engine installed in California and 488 GTB), the right person in the right place would say. And in fact the similarities between the two power units are not limited to the designer's surname but are also similarities in the dimensions of bore, as well as in the design of the piston and the combustion chamber. Equally unusual is the choice of a 90 ░ V (as the Ferrari) V8 for a six-cylinder engine, solution adopted from the past but returned in vogue lately also, as the configuration adopted by the current Formula1 engines. The included angle between the cylinder banks generates a sequence of irregular bursts (90 ░ -150 ░ -90 ░ ...) which triggers vibrations which must be properly managed but, at the same time allows to exploit the engine as a double tricilindrico flanked, of not factor little account whereas the choice of operating the deactivation of a cylinder bank, in low load conditions. In fact this is precisely the point of pride of the engine, which make the most of the technical choices allows you to switch off one cylinder bank (the right always) without losing anything in terms of sound or vibration, so as not to have to resort to any kind of of synthesizer system of sounds to make up for an energy-saving situation. The decommissioning of three cylinders occurs by using the hydraulic tappets, which must become the "idle" with respect to the valve stem, maintaining the three fasting cylinders is air that fuel. Everything is managed via hydraulics, with a complex system of valves OCV obtained in part in the casting of the cylinder head, which became then a small work of gold. Also the lubricant demands of the right turbine, which in this phase is not hit by the exhaust gas, are excluded in the process of switching off cylinders. The distribution has a kinematic borrowed from the world of racing with valve controls implemented by means of rocker fingers and needle bearings to give strong acceleration to the same valves, without discounting losses caused by excessive mechanical cam profiles too pushed. A short space of two chains serves the two cylinder banks taking the motion from an intermediate gear which also serves the oil pump, the variable displacement type. Relatively simple, compared to the rest of the applied solutions, remains the supercharging provided by two fixed geometry turbines and single scroll, their choice justified by the particular timing of bursts that avoids any overlap of the exhaust phases, harmful in terms of incoming gas to impeller of the turbine. The maximum charge pressure is set at 2.5 bar absolute pressure(1,5 bar boost).

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Last edited by Gabor K.; 02-11-2017 at 08:57 AM.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 10:24 AM
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Engine Technology International - September 2016

Quote:
As soon as we have developed a combustion chamber concept (within the FIAT Chrysler Group), we try to share the basic dimensions wherever possible
Quote:
Officially, the V6 is a clean-sheet design..
Quote:
We had a lot of people with different competencies and coming from different backgrounds. They were put together in a sort of skunkworks. That was part of the fun

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 10:44 AM
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Engine Technology International - June 2016

This is the concept that we will see soon for 2.0 350 HP Giulia for North American market
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 12:38 PM
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Gabor,

There is no such thing as separate companies anymore, ie. Alfa Romeo does not have its own factory, its own designers, etc. Everything is very much now under the FIAT umbrella.

When they say a Ferrari designer moved to Alfa Romeo, that is equivalent to the designer moved from the Ferrari design team to the Alfa design team for this project, ie. moved offices in the same company.

I guess the reporters need to get with the program too, as ALL engines in the FIAT/Ferrari/Alfa Romeo/Lancia/Maserati group are designed by that "group" and installed into the appropriate badged vehicles, so even Ferraris do not technically have Ferrari designed engines but group designed.

The marketing people of FIAT/Ferrari/Alfa Romeo/Lancia/Maserati try to make it sound like they are separate companies but they are not. They do this because they know potential buyers are hung up on these things ... including me.


Yes the group has designed a clever v6 and yes the marketing or reporters think it makes the car better if the words Ferrari inspired are used. Personally I don't, and still think it is a shame that the included angle is 90 degrees as that often stuffs the sound of a v6. A compromise probably like GM/Ford so they can use the same machining machines as v8 engines ... maybe?

Marketing is pretty much lying nowadays
Pete

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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting Max, that article on the V6 engine.

Seems like in the beginning it was interesting for Alfa to connect the car up to Ferrari to make it more exciting for the Alfa fans, but as time has passed it seems that the content of the history is that Alfa put together an engineering project led by 2 ex Ferrari engineers and they created a car and engine after their own concept.

How much content of previous experience is in the new Alfa project is a bit open here, as the project started really from scratch. So the story of just chopping off two cylinders of the Ferrari engine is just guesswork because bore and stroke and V-angle is the same. Its also possible that Pivetti took the best features of his previous V8 engine and made a new Alfa engine according to the new engine spec demands?

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Interesting Max, that article on the V6 engine.

Seems like in the beginning it was interesting for Alfa to connect the car up to Ferrari to make it more exciting for the Alfa fans, but as time has passed it seems that the content of the history is that Alfa put together an engineering project led by 2 ex Ferrari engineers and they created a car and engine after their own concept.

How much content of previous experience is in the new Alfa project is a bit open here, as the project started really from scratch. So the story of just chopping off two cylinders of the Ferrari engine is just guesswork because bore and stroke and V-angle is the same. Its also possible that Pivetti took the best features of his previous V8 engine and made a new Alfa engine according to the new engine spec demands?

G.
Do we know the bore centres? As if they are the same heck they must have started with the "Ferrari" v8.

Makes sense though, same pistons and rods (???) saves cost.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 07:23 PM
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Do we know the bore centres? As if they are the same heck they must have started with the "Ferrari" v8.

Makes sense though, same pistons and rods (???) saves cost.
Pete
The bore, stroke, v-angle, and cylinder spacing are all the same as the Ferrari V-8.

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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 07:55 PM
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But combustion chamber, valve gear, pistons, rods, and all parts of the engine are different So, what is common between Ferrari V8 and Alfa V6? Just bore and stroke

I would say we can name Ferrari V8 and Alfa V6 forme the same family if they built at the same line. However I'm not sure that Alfa V6 is assembled at Ferrari in Maranello

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 03:56 AM Thread Starter
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Another similarity of the engines is that the cam drive is on the rear as can be seen on the previous debate link.

Disregarding all clues that this is an Alfa internal consturction, even Alfa team confirming this, all the tests around always talk about a Ferrari or Ferrari derived engine. Must be more intriguing then to have a Ferrari engine than an Alfa engine! Alternative News, sound better?

Rhetorically speaking what could be easyest making two engines with virtually no common parts: reworking a V8 engine to be a V6 or starting on a clean sheet and construct a V6 with same bore and stroke as the V8 and some similar feautures like same V angle and rear cam drive?

I think we have to wait some time until more info comes forward to decide what actually happened when starting up this Giorgio project!

Anyway, the project leader of the Giorgio project, Philippe Krief, quit from Alfa Romeo last year and went back to Ferrari, so they had to bring back another engineer from BMW to take over the project. Reason for Kriefs quitting is said to be problems with quality delays at the production facility and crash test certifying. Anyway the project seems to be in good hands with the new leader!


http://www.motoring.com.au/ex-ferrar...om-bmw-101166/

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 07:22 AM
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When I first heard that the Giulia was using a Ferrari engine (true or not) my thoughts were, and in this order:

1. Oh my! A powerful beast. What a power-plant!
2. Uh oh. Maintenance and repairs are going to impossible to afford. Will the engine need to be removed just to change the oil?
3. But Alfa is a great engine designer / builder. Why do they need help building an engine?

Most auto manufactures do rework existing components, turning four cylinder engines into six, eights into sixes and such. Most sections under the same umbrella share parts as well. Both are cost effective ways to produce cars. Sometimes this makes for a better car, sometimes not. Being that Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Maserati and Chrysler are under the same one umbrella, why would they not share things from ideas to design teams to parts and even facilities?

If it's actually a good car, does it really matter where the parts & designers are sourced from?

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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 07:36 AM
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When I first heard that the Giulia was using a Ferrari engine (true or not) my thoughts were, and in this order:


3. But Alfa is a great engine designer / builder. Why do they need help building an engine?
Long story short. Engineers passed away. They were old. As I know last engine by old Alfa engineering staff was designed in early 2000s. It was new V6 for 159 FL, the project was put on the shelf. Then the engine department in Alfa was closed.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 09:24 AM
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But combustion chamber, valve gear, pistons, rods, and all parts of the engine are different
How do you know this? Makes sense for at least rods to be the same. The Daytona and 308 engine share the same rods (I believe) so Ferrari (FIAT, etc.) is not new to component rationalisation.

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