Test drove the new Giulia - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #46 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PhilBoncer View Post
Yes, cars are more specialized these days, and no one was really expecting the Giulia to just be a square version of the 4C. But the point is that Alfa makes sporting cars (or did, and should), and thus the Giulia (all models) should have a sporting feel -- should handle and steer and brake well, should communicate precisely, should be tuned for driving briskly, should *not* be just another entry-level luxury car. 280hp is plenty for a good performance sedan, having to spend an extra $30K on the 500hp version should not be needed to get an involving driving experience.

If I get behind the wheel, and can't immediately tell the difference from a Mazda or Honda, there's no reason for me to buy one. A "large GT car" is closer to what it needs to be.
Just go drive one... and don't be scared about the salesman wagging their finger and telling you to slow down. The car feels light and responsive in comparison to it's competition.
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post #47 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 01:07 PM
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Just go drive one... and don't be scared about the salesman wagging their finger and telling you to slow down. The car feels light and responsive in comparison to it's competition.
I'm hoping so. I'm open to the possibility. That will be my decision point -- if it feels like I think an Alfa should, i.e. at least a bit sportier and more responsive than a BMW, then I'm pretty likely to buy one. If not, then a Mazda will do just as well, for less money and hassle.

Or maybe go back to not caring about cars at all, get a $2K Camry to drive when it snows, and ride my Ducati (with added gear as needed) whenever it isn't actually icy out. With my heated gloves, I can ride for about an hour at 20F without being frightfully uncomfortable, so that covers most of my needs.

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post #48 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 03:34 PM
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Define a Sports Car!
This is a car that has nothing! I mean no assisted functions, to allow the driver to control the car.
The car is in your hands, taking off, clutching, shifting, braking, under your control,
NO Computas!
NO ABS
NO Power steering
Manual Transmission! The Left foot has got to do some work.
Driving the hard way, you may pass me off the line with your Ajeomagic Paddle Shiftier.
Watch out I'll be by in the nick of time. Happened many times with these modern cars.
The last real Sports Car made is GTV-6? Me opinion.
These car today are computers on wheels noncollectable, the electronics integrated in these cars will breakdown in a decade or 2.
Not like the the cars we love that are over 40 years old with a simple $5.00 Relay to keep her running.

AlfasRule!

1972 Montreal (The Pumpkin)
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1975 Alfetta Coupe Race Car
1982 Spider
1984 GTV-6
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post #49 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by alfasrule View Post
Define a Sports Car!
This is a car that has nothing! I mean no assisted functions, to allow the driver to control the car.
The car is in your hands, taking off, clutching, shifting, braking, under your control,
NO Computas!
NO ABS
NO Power steering
Manual Transmission! The Left foot has got to do some work.
Driving the hard way, you may pass me off the line with your Ajeomagic Paddle Shiftier.
Watch out I'll be by in the nick of time. Happened many times with these modern cars.
The last real Sports Car made is GTV-6? Me opinion.
These car today are computers on wheels noncollectable, the electronics integrated in these cars will breakdown in a decade or 2.
Not like the the cars we love that are over 40 years old with a simple $5.00 Relay to keep her running.
That pretty much describes my one-ton truck. Manual every thing, no creature comforts. I have taken the beast up into the canyons and flogged the thing. Yes, I caught up to slower traffic. I even have street performance pads and steel braided brake lines on him. (Needed the better pads to control brake fade while towing my race car. The brake lines? Well, the original lines were 50 years old.)

Driving in a sporty fashion does not make a sports car.

RaceráZ
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C
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post #50 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alfasrule View Post
These car today are computers on wheels noncollectable, the electronics integrated in these cars will breakdown in a decade or 2.
Not like the the cars we love that are over 40 years old with a simple $5.00 Relay to keep her running.
Can't be any worse than getting an ARC to stop blinking like a Christmas tree
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post #51 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 08:44 PM
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"Almost impossible" is a gross overstatement. Run straight-pipes off a 2L Turbo motor, and I assure you the result will be quite loud. My turbo spider has just a small resonator on a 3-inch exhaust- it sounds great. The 4C also makes plenty of noise out of a 1.8T motor.

But yes, the base Giulia is supposed to be a entry-level luxury family car. If you want a snarling exhaust and barn-burning performance, that's why they made the Quad.
We are talking about engine sound, not exhaust. Loud exhaust is a fart, engine sound is a heartbeat, the breath. It was the difference between Italian cars (with real engine sound) and Japanese and German (sounded by exhaust only).


And it is not a gross overstatement. Read Domenico Chirico articles about the quality of the car, a chapter about gas-dynamic sound. He explained that the engine with turbo and inter-cooler blocks acoustic energy that in NA engines sounds through cylinder block.

Anyway, the goal of the designers to create a silent car. Usually drivers understand that silent car is much better, much comfortable to drive.

Last edited by Max Pershyn; 03-01-2017 at 09:04 PM.
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post #52 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
We are talking about engine sound, not exhaust. Loud exhaust is a fart, engine sound is a heartbeat, the breath. It was the difference between Italian cars (with real engine sound) and Japanese and German (sounded by exhaust only).


And it is not a gross overstatement. Read Domenico Chirico articles about the quality of the car, a chapter about gas-dynamic sound. He explained that the engine with turbo and inter-cooler blocks acoustic energy that in NA engines sounds through cylinder block.

Anyway, the goal of the designers to create a silent car. Usually drivers understand that silent car is much better, much comfortable to drive.
There's no such thing as engine sound that is not altered by the exhaust (well, unless you like starting fires in your engine bay). There's no scientific basis for any claim that Italian cars have "real" engine sound and other cars have "sound by exhaust". The difference in sound between the two is mostly different philosophies of exhaust tuning. It's true that certain Italian engines have a distinct sound due to motor design choices. For example, a flat plane crank v8 (used by Ferrari) is going to sound very different from a cross-plane v8 (most American V8s). But Italians have been just as enthusiastic about forced induction as anybody else through the years. Lancia was racing a turbocharged Stratos in the 70s.

As Mr. Chirco correctly points out, a turbocharger acts as a muffler, though I have no idea what he is on about with "engine sounds through the cylinder block." Even so, a Turbocharger is a much less effective muffler than a device specifically designed to be a muffler. A turbocharged car with straight pipes will have plenty of sound. In any event, I think you would like my Spider if you heard it. It sounds great.

Last edited by nealric; 03-02-2017 at 06:11 AM.
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post #53 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 09:40 AM
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I had my first personal look at the Giulia - a TI and whatever the base model is called (no paddles, sunroof, or painted calipers) - at the the combined Alfa and Ferrari club meet a couple of weeks ago. I have not driven one (yet) so this is based purely on how it looks and feels to sit in and touch and I'm going to be brutally honest here. Whereas the 4C is unmistakably an Alfa, unique and unlike anything else out there (other than possibly the Lotus) the Giulia is struggling in that regard. The grill is really the only thing you have here to distinguish it from just about any other four door sedan out there. Especially in regards to headlights and tail lights and pretty much everything else in between there is little to nothing that sets it apart from a BMW 3 to a Kia Optima.

Personally I don't have a problem with the lack of a manual transmission. Maybe if this were to be your only car it would be a factor but having the 308 plus my 115 Spider would provide more than enough manual shifting pleasure to satisfy me.

However, as of yet, The Giulia hasn't pushed my buttons nor reached out and grabbed me. The cars in today's market seem so homogeneous with very little to set them apart or make them unique from each other. Brand loyalty has been diluted. One of my brothers recently bought a new Ford Fusion and honestly it's not a bad car. Certainly not ghastly awful as we would have imagined 30 or 40 years ago.

Alfa has a tough nut to crack here.

Paul - 1972 Spider - (2)1991 164S's - 1983 308 - 2001 Discovery - 1997 F350
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post #54 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 09:55 AM
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"The last real Sports Car made is GTV-6?"

I'm sympathetic to this argument, but I think the 3.2 911 made through '89 (I think) has a good argument for that distinction as well. No matter, both are in good company. I had a chance to buy a beautiful, completely sorted '86 911 a few years ago for only $21.5. Even had the Turbo-look body kit. Black over tan. I really kick myself now for not grabbing it. But, I was in an Alfa trance at the time and just didn't lust enough for it; it would have been like taking the wrong pretty girl to the prom. Now though, I'd love that 911 to go with a GTV6.

Jim
Current: Black/tan '86 GTV6; Blue '87 Milano Plat; Blue/tan '76 Alfetta
Past: Opale/tan '84 GTV6; Red/tan '95 164Q; Silver '87 Spider Quad; Red/tan '91 Spider, Black/tan '91 Spider Veloce; Black/brown '83 Spider Veloce
Current non-Alfa: '03 White/tan 330i ZHP; Red/tan '98 Taurus SHO
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post #55 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 10:00 AM
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About the only time you hear actual "engine" sound is from an air cooled motorcycle, and that is only when the mufflers work.

For a modern, water cooled car, the water and water jackets absorb a lot of sound. The bodywork (hood, fenders, firewall) stop a lot of sounds. Then, there is all the heavy insulation in the engine bay that "insulates" both sound and heat. Hearing the engine is almost impossible, which is why a seasoned mechanic has a stethoscope as part of his arsenal.

We are left hearing things like the intake, tailpipe, wastegate (most don't vent to an audible location, the 4C is an exception), cooling fans, tire hum, and my farts if I'm in the car.

Some cars, such as the Fiat 500 Abarth and the Alfa Romeo 4C, don't have a muffler. I owned an Abarth and currently own a 4C. The turbo and catalytic converter both absorb a lot of sound.

I test drove both a Giulia Quad and Giulia Ti. The Quad had an exhaust note. The Ti did not. I didn't notice much of anything in the way of intake or wastegate from either. Perhaps I didn't drive them long enough? Yes, I got on the gas, full throttled both of them. There's a reason, and it's valid, as to why the Giulia base and Ti are whisper quiet. They are sedans. Passenger cars. The general populous expects a sedan to be whisper quiet.

My thoughts are that I need to change both the intake and the exhaust so I do get some sort of rumble, and improved breathing (which in turn helps with better throttle response). I'll probably wait for the aftermarket companies to build a few.

Clearly, the Giulia is a performance minded passenger car that offers something for the driver as well as the passengers. It is no sport car, even though it can be driven in a sporty fashion. Is the Giulia a GT (grand touring) or a saloon? As modern cars go, it's probably a saloon that doesn't drive like a saloon. Or a large GT. My one ton truck fits the sport car definition better than the Giulia does, but it's no sports car no matter how hard I flog the thing.

RaceráZ
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C

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post #56 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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My thoughts are that I need to change both the intake and the exhaust so I do get some sort of rumble, and improved breathing (which in turn helps with better throttle response).
I had the same thought. The car sounds great as it is, but it's very quiet. Changing or even eliminating the silencers on the exhaust and intake will let you hear it better.

It's important to keep in mind the cabin is really well insulated so it's not going to be loud inside the car unless you ruin things.

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As modern cars go, it's probably a saloon that doesn't drive like a saloon.
Yep, good summary.
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post #57 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 11:20 AM
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Giulia has Multiair system, when you change air filter for something from after market, like BMC or whatever brand, the check engine light will appear almost every week. The Multiair is very sensitive to air quality.

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post #58 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 12:48 PM
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car needs to be on the road to enjoy the exhaust note
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post #59 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
Giulia has Multiair system, when you change air filter for something from after market, like BMC or whatever brand, the check engine light will appear almost every week. The Multiair is very sensitive to air quality.
The early intakes for the A500 had issues like that, but it's not an issue now that people have worked out all the sensor placements. It's similar to how you will get O2 sensor "delay" errors on some cars with custom exhausts. It's just another thing that has to be factored into the design.
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post #60 of 65 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 04:38 PM
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I like that the shift paddles are column mounted. My Mercedes has them move with the steering wheel, which can be confusing during an autocross. Turn the wheel and blip paddle on the left and suddenly you have upshifted instead of downshifting!
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