Cylinder Liner HELP

[Larry G]

Have a problem with 2 L Alfa. Had an oil pan full of gas (Weber problem) and antifreeze. The engine has way less than 1 K miles on it. I didn't build it, it came with the car and I just installed it. Pulled the head and no readily apparent damage to gasket, so figured the liner seals to the block were leaking. Pulled the pan and tried to get liners/pistons out. From all I have read, these liners are evidently not supposed to be hard to get out (cautions about holding liners down while head off, etc.), but I can't get them out. Tried tapping with a wooden stick on bottom of liner, no luck. Started to get desperate and used a brass drift against bottom of liner, tapping first one side and then the other. Finally got about .010 - .015 movement, but still recalcitrant. 'Beating' on these cast iron (almost new Borgo 10.4) liners is not my idea of the way to go. What am I missing here or what is the accepted technique??

Larry G

[genericwood]

Larry, others may offer better suggestions, but here goes. First, it is unusual in my experience for the liner seals to fail. Although I constantly hear of people using silicone on them, I've never had any problems. The liners do get stuck pretty good. There was an Alfa tool that allowed you to drive them out from the bottom. Since I don't have one, I have had pretty good luck using a 2x4 cut with a "point" so it fits into the bottom of the liner. If it doesn't move easily, you might try using a screwdriver to wiggle the lineres side to side from the top. Anyone else have a sure fire method?

Erik

[Larry G]

Erik
Thanks. The wood idea was pretty much what I had in mind to begin with. Didn't seem to do much. May try to make a wooden driver out of oak (harder wood) and try that. Just worried about cracking/chipping liners.

Larry

[othercarsaford]

A quote from Willie R's Spider Registry website:

"I use an old piston with the top ring on. Put it up side down in the liner until the top ring is expanding and then use a soft hammer and a piece of wood to remove them both. Remember to use an old piston, not the new one."

There is a picture in that section as well if this sounds confusing. His website is http://hem.passagen.se/veloce/CAT12.HTM. Look in the index under "Pistons and Liners."

If you are re-using your liners, you might want be careful with the 2X4 "wedge" idea, as too much muscle with an angled driver on only two sides of a round hole can make a circle an oval (don't forget, it doesn't take much when you are talking about motor internals, and angles can increase the load exponentially like the angled shank of a lug nut). Just my little voice shouting "NO" in my ear.

Good luck.

Thomas

[GTD]

I've never done it on an Alfa - but a liner's a liner!

Use the junk piston method or turn down a driver from aluminum or brass. I use an air hammer with a blunt ended tool (mushroom head) against the DUMMY piston. The vibration from the multiple impacts will ease the liners out without damaging anything.

[classicalfas]

Just curious, but there have been many complaints about the Reinz head gaskets not having sealant around the back of the cylinder oil drain back holes, could it be this head gasket was used to put your motor back together? This failure will resemble your situation. Just a thought.
Usually the liner o-rings do not fail unless the head is off, and the all important liner hold down tubes are not bolted down, and the motor is turned over, inadvertantly pushing a liner up tearing the o-ring or a little bit of crud interferes with the seal. Not thinking anything of it, pushing the liner down, putting the head back on and firing up the motor = Antifreeze in the sump. I know that from experience, 17 years ago. Peter.

[Gary Williams]

Reinz isn't the only head gasket being sold that doesn't come with sealant around the rear oil galley holes. The Guarnitano (sp?) we just used needed Permatex Ultra Grey, too.

Searching this forum for more about Reinz head gaskets is a good idea. You can also go to this link, to see what Alfa Wizard Jon Norman supplies with the head gaskets he sells: http://www.greend.com/reinz_head_gskt.htm.

Gary W.

[Larry G]

Thanks for all the input guys. We're still fooling around with getting them out, have been playing around with a 'puller' idea we had. I'll let you know how it worked out. Will definitely check out the head gasket sealing ideas passed on here. I know the old gasket did NOT have any kind of sealant around the oil drainbacks. Ah well, we live and learn. Luckily, my Alfetta is in the 'Loved Toy' category and I can take my time during these cold winter days working with her so she is ready again when the weather gets warm.


Larry G

[Ghost]

I'm not an expert, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night. But...

I did recently successfully remove the pistons from my block. I did not have prior experience doing so. I had two that were stuck badly, one really badly. I did not have to worry about damaging the liners as I was replacing, so I was free to more liberally experiment. That means I was not afraid to beat on the bad boys when they decided to be difficult.

I actually got away with using a large cold chisel to get purchase on the edge of the liner. I could then beat the liner out and not damage the block. Actually on most of the liners, I did not even score the liner. But, and this is a big but. Do your beating with a rubber mallett. The rubber mallett was the difference in not doing any scoring. If you use a metal hammer, your going to dent that liner for sure. Magical how important simple tools like a rubber mallett are!

That said...having spoken to someone who IS an expert, apparently all this liner beating is not really the best way to accomplish the goal. If you can simply heat the block (probably in a tank), it will expand faster than the liners and then they simply fall out. Man, I guess the experts really do get paid for something!

[turbolarespider]

Have you tried finding the factory tool? It will fit perfectly in the bottom of the liner, and then you drive it out. Something like the piston tool, but from the factory....

Eric

[Roadtrip]

In the S3 spider Alfa manual, I don't even see a special liner removal tool anymore. How about some dry ice to shrink the liner.


Reminds me of the story about the when the first B-1 bomber was being assembled. The airplane has a swing wing which pivots on a fairly substancial titanium pin. The engineering was done such that this was a "one-time" shot. Meant never to be disassembled. The engineers and techs had just mated the first wing to it's center fuselage section when another engineer walked out onto the hangar floor, took one look at the pin and said "You guys put that pin in upside down."

Well, I guess about 15 guys all wet their pants at once. The next problem was to reverse engineer the process. As simple as it sounds, they put heat blankets around the pin boss and some cold gas (nitrogen or something) in the pin, and voila, it came back out easy as you please.

[othercarsaford]

THAT'S IT!!!!

I recommend that you use liquid nitrogen and C4. That should do the trick.

[74GTVEEE]

You can pack the liner with dry ice and hopefully it will shrink it, otherwise I have a method for removal that always works but the liner will be rendered useless...

Zal

[Larry G]

Needed to save liner. C4 would probably work - but then I'd have to figure how to get it off the moon. Hee Hee

Larry G

[alfajagowner]

I think I have the liner special. I would have to find a picture in my special part manual and them look for similiar. Let me know, I would need a gurantee on return as any special tool is not replaceable.

Al