02-26-2008, 02:36 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennessee
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Greg,
I beleive so. The Getrag BMW 5 spd has layed down over 700hp on no rebuild or strengthining modifications. They are silky smooth too. Fill the trans with some BG syncroshift 2, and it will never grind. I think its a awesome idea, and should not be too hard to make it go.
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[COLOR="Green"]When cornering hard.... It's not the tires screaming...[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]It's the road begging for mercy. [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]1985 Maserati[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"] Biturbo, 5spd. A work in progress. [/COLOR]
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02-26-2008, 02:43 PM
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Richard Jemison
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 981
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Seat/valve stuff
A quick answer & elaborate tonight.
I have a drawing a very nice BB member did from my pics & discriptions of the valve cuts. If someone can convert the file to a "BB postable " image I`ll send it. The valves look like the pics below of the Titanium valves I reshaped the back side of, and rounded the chamber side margins. If you look at the pics you can see the seat shape, and the small seat location at the very outer edge of the valve`s margin. Little to sisturb flow once open.. A single cutter is used to shape the seat taper and seating surface. There is a small (very) radius at the seat surface & taper. (you can feel it more than see it.)
More tonite.
My wife leaves me notes of my daily schedule! 
__________________
Richard Jemison
RJR Racing
http://scuderiagiallo.com
"you don`t have to listen, but you won`t win the argument"!
"Nothing that I might suggest will be legal in California"
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02-26-2008, 02:48 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milpitas CA
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do not forget the head lifting or the liner spliting problems that happen in the 400 range.
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1987 black Milano Verde
1972 White spider 2000 Veloce
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02-26-2008, 03:40 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennessee
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Head lifting, and liner splitting? Hmmm, interesting. How do you combat that?
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[COLOR="Green"]When cornering hard.... It's not the tires screaming...[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]It's the road begging for mercy. [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]1985 Maserati[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"] Biturbo, 5spd. A work in progress. [/COLOR]
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02-26-2008, 04:06 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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Hi oldschooleuros,
Instead of the BMW E36 Getrag 265, it may pay to use the 265 Getrag from an E28. If you get the boxes from earlier years (pre-80 I think), then the internals have the better brass synchros, a stronger bronze shift fork and a reverse gear synchroniser.
BTW, what diff ratio are you planning on using? Depending on the diff ratio, it's just that the 3.82 1st gear ratio of the Getrag may be another problem to be addressed.
If you're interested, my brother is currently in throws of fitting a Getrag 265 into his Spider, and he is looking at having a new 1-5 gear cut for the box to go for around a 3.0~3.1 first gear ratio. The price is looking to be around AUD$1500 for the gears, but this was cheaper than a stronger gear set for the 105 Alfa gearbox.
Dino
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02-26-2008, 05:24 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 313
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Adel,
Thanks for the advice man. I will be doing this swap while in college, during my custom chassis fabrication class. I am familar with the E28 box, and have driven them, they are quite smooth. I prefer the E36 Getrag though, because I am familar with it, and have had lots of experience with it. I am going to rebuild it before it goes into the car, and I know what rear end ratios will effectively work with the Getrag. 
Thanks
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[COLOR="Green"]When cornering hard.... It's not the tires screaming...[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]It's the road begging for mercy. [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]1985 Maserati[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"] Biturbo, 5spd. A work in progress. [/COLOR]
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02-26-2008, 06:07 PM
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Slacker
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 6,511
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7
I have a drawing a very nice BB member did from my pics & discriptions of the valve cuts. If someone can convert the file to a "BB postable " image I`ll send it
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PM me and I'll give you an email to send it to.
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02-26-2008, 08:00 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,290
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I predict the BMW transmission swap will be a massive amount of work. There are always many unforeseen problems with modifications of that nature.
I am not saying it will be easy to get 400hp out of a forced induction Spider engine, nor will I make any predictions about longevity. However the head lifting and liner failure problems can be at least partially mitigated with a mono block liner set and ARP studs. Obviously this would be a massively expensive project. It's not within the realm of anything I plan to do. Although I am confident I will eventually have a 275hp Spider, and that's A LOT in a Spider.
Greg Gordon,
hiperformancestore |
02-26-2008, 08:30 PM
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Slacker
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 6,511
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Files as mentioned aboce converted and loaded up:
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02-26-2008, 09:32 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tennessee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Gordon
I predict the BMW transmission swap will be a massive amount of work. There are always many unforeseen problems with modifications of that nature.
I am not saying it will be easy to get 400hp out of a forced induction Spider engine, nor will I make any predictions about longevity. However the head lifting and liner failure problems can be at least partially mitigated with a mono block liner set and ARP studs. Obviously this would be a massively expensive project. It's not within the realm of anything I plan to do. Although I am confident I will eventually have a 275hp Spider, and that's A LOT in a Spider.
Greg Gordon,
hiperformancestore |
The bimmer trans swap will not be easy, but if it was easy, everyone would do it. 
I want 400+ out of my Spider. Is it absolutly needed? Probably not, but I want it. I want to see what it can do.
I feel that any 4 cylinder can do above 375 hp, if it is 2 liters or more. And be reliable, it just takes some thinking, and some very careful work.
Some people may think I am crazy, or stupid. But 15 years ago when David Buschur claimed he would run an 11 out of a Plymouth laser 2.0 turbo on factory cams, pistons, and rods, everyone said he was an idiot. Now they do it in the 9s, and he is a millionare. I dont really want anything out of it personally except some fun, a learning experience, a fast car, and a way to show it can be done so fellow spider owners can feel confident approaching it themselves.
__________________
[COLOR="Green"]When cornering hard.... It's not the tires screaming...[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]It's the road begging for mercy. [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]1985 Maserati[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"] Biturbo, 5spd. A work in progress. [/COLOR]
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02-26-2008, 09:51 PM
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Richard Jemison
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 981
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Valve & seat drawing & pics
Tifiosi
Thanks for the help getting the valve drawings & pics on!
Is that what you wanted ROSSO...?
__________________
Richard Jemison
RJR Racing
http://scuderiagiallo.com
"you don`t have to listen, but you won`t win the argument"!
"Nothing that I might suggest will be legal in California"
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02-26-2008, 10:04 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7
If you want compression, mill the head to get it. Spend the build $$$ on proper porting, seat shape, valve shape (no 3 angle stuff) and with good designed cams & intake you can make 160 to 170 with those simple ingredients.
To get to 11.0 to one will take about .070 cut from the head, but it will still run on premium because of the combustion chamber shape.
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I'm definitely NOT questioning your results or techniques. Milling the head is a proven way to get power, and your argument about the shape of the 9:1 pistons makes good sense.
However, I'm still not sure it's a good idea to recommend this to others, and here's why: Good, uncracked 2 liter heads are becoming a bit of a scarce commodity. When you cut a head .070 - what are you going to do the next time the head needs to come off and get a fly cut to true it? And the time after that?
It won't be long before it's cut too far to run on any pump gas.
The nice thing about fine tuning the compression ratio with pistons is that it's completely reversible
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02-27-2008, 12:23 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jul 2003
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Yes, thank you Richard and Tifiosi. The drawing is very nice.
So, valves cut this way you feel are superior as they will enhance flow. Richard this is a cut for the valves that you would use on a track car as well?
I know little about valves and you seem to have tested many differen't flow shapes over the years, so I am assuming that of all you have tested and flowed this is what you have found to be the superior shaping and cut. Duly noted. What are your thoughts on doing this cut with 47mm intake valves and 38mm or 39mm exhaust valves(to reduce over scavanging) for a track car?
"the Titanium valves I reshaped the back side of, and rounded the chamber side margins. If you look at the pics you can see the seat shape, and the small seat location at the very outer edge of the valve`s margin. Little to sisturb flow once open.. A single cutter is used to shape the seat taper and seating surface. There is a small (very) radius at the seat surface & taper. (you can feel it more than see it".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7
Tifiosi
Thanks for the help getting the valve drawings & pics on!
Is that what you wanted ROSSO...?
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Last edited by RossoGTV4Me; 02-27-2008 at 09:28 AM.
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02-27-2008, 08:35 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,290
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Richard, Thanks for that ultra valuable drawing. I can see you put a lot of time into that. I don't doubt your logic about milling the head, but I do agree with JoeCab on that one. I am generally against milling Alfa heads because they are getting tough to replace. That's actually one of the only things you have written that I disagree with.
Oldschooleuros: Keep in mind anything over a certain point in a Spider will just turn into tire smoke at normal stop light grand prix engagements. I seriously doubt anything much over 250 will be useful without significant increases in traction which would sacrifice handling.
I think it's unlikely a 250hp Spider would have problems with other legitimate street sport compacts. There are a lot of people who claim huge number on smaller 4cyls, but the whole story is more complex. I highly suggest you read this: Tech Page .
My supercharged GTV6 (sold without the blower to a nice guy in Nevada) had about 250-270hp at the flywheel in it's final configuration. With that setup it never lost a stoplight grand prix encounter. Of course there are many cars faster, but few in it's class and the odds of running into one of those are small. You may have seen this, but here is a video my son (who is about your age) took of my GTV6 drag racing a Cobalt SS supercharged. In 2006 at the time that was the fastest sub 30K car you could buy, and this one was faster than most. Magazines reported 0-60 in 6.1. My Alfa also beat a 350Z auto, quite a few WRXs, RX8s and more. Imagine the same amount of power in a Spider! That would be a very quick car.
P.S. Yeah, I know I spun the tires way too much in that dragrace, but I didn't want to risk getting bogged down in first with the 3.42 rear end. This way insured victory.
Greg Gordon,
hiperformancestore | |
'84 manufacture ~ '85 MY Spider Graduate