#1 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 04:52 PM
mats andersen mats andersen is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 27
Installed spring height

Hi

I am installing the Kent 303 cams in persuit of more power I am also about to fit the Kent VS42 springs.
On the package it says "installed height 37mm".
They are double springs where the inner spring is short at only 38mm's uninstalled.

Engine 2.0 NORD


"installed height 37mm":

I assume this means the actual length of the spring when it is installed in the head. I also assumed they meant the outer spring for some reason. It appears that installing the spring in stock head on stock steel shims, gives me a installed lenght of 39mm's.
Inner spring is 37mm installed though....Which sounds reasonable as uncompressed lenght is 38mm for that. So it sits nicely in place before its pressurized.

It sounds strange that I would need to add 2mm shims in bottom of the bores to make this right. The springs would sit really tight then, and maybe coilbinding would become an issue.

Do the manufacturer mean inner or outer spring should be 37mm?? Anyone has experience with this?

My plan was to do this in the weekednd so Kent cannot be reached

Thanks for any help

Mats
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 09:26 AM
Jim K. Jim K. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 423
The target is to have about 85-90lbs with the valve closed and about 185-190lbs at 10mm valve lift. If this means an installed height of 37mm, all is well. Note that installed height means the length of the outer spring. Inner spring length is always 2mm less because of the stepped retainer shape. There is no harm in using washers under the spring dish to adjust spring height when necessary.
Jim K.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 09:44 AM
mats andersen mats andersen is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 27
Thanks Jim

Ok that is the answer then.
Then I will have machined 2mm shims to go in the bottom of the bores to leave me with a 37mm OUTER SPRING installed height.


I do not have a spring tesing jig to test strength at different levels of compression... tips where to buy this online?

Standard springs seems to have 39mm installed height, so doing this will increase the spring pressure significantly.
As these springs and cams are manufactured by Kent, and meant for living together, I suppose when they
say 37mm installed height, that is what will leave me with the correct spring force against the cam lobes.

Mats
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 09:55 AM
mats andersen mats andersen is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 27
Thanks Jim

Ok that is the answer then.
Then I will have machined 2mm shims to go in the bottom of the bores to leave me with a 37mm OUTER SPRING installed height.


I do not have a spring tesing jig to test strength at different levels of compression... tips where to buy this online?

Standard springs seems to have 39mm installed height, so doing this will increase the spring pressure significantly.
As these springs and cams are manufactured by Kent, and meant for living together, I suppose when they
say 37mm installed height, that is what will leave me with the correct spring force against the cam lobes.

Mats
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 10:17 AM
60sRacer 60sRacer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,403
For a performance engine, you really need a spring test rig. The correct way to install the valve springs is by seat pressure, not height - the springs often have small variations that must be compensated for in shims to get a constant seat load. In a correct test rig, you can also check the spring for binding at full lift - a catastrophic problem if it happens.

If you don't have or can't find one, go to an engine shop - they will, and can test and measure each of your springs. This is not a bolt-it-together and go issue!

Robert.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 10:55 AM
Jim K. Jim K. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 423
Where to get one? You still have some time, go for it!! Its the best and safest way to measure your own springs and the only way to make sure you end up with a matched set of springs for your engine (by juggling around inner and outer springs, i.e. pairing the weakest inner with the stronger outer and so on)
Rimac tester, Parts Accessories, eBay Motors items on eBay.com

Jim K.

Last edited by Jim K.; 02-02-2008 at 11:00 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 11:05 AM
mats andersen mats andersen is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 27
ok thanks

The engine builder down the street is a pain in the ***, and surely would not help me.

I understand the importance of beeing accurate.
But these springs are designed to work with this engine and these cams. If coil binding would occur I believe that would be ridicolous and surely Kent should have the bill for rebuilding the head. In the installation instructions, it says nothing about measuring the springs prior to installation. That would be a little bit like checking weight on each carillo rod before installing. For safety, double checking is the way to make sure what you've got. Especially when not buying state of the art products.

I dropped a mail to Kent to make sure about the VS42's compabilty on the Alfa romeo head, as they also go in certain other european engines.

If I do not get a very distinct answer I will find a jig somewhere and check the springs to achieve Jim K. numbers as mentioned above:

(cant wait to have the new cams in there!)

regards
Mats
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 11:56 AM
60sRacer 60sRacer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by mats andersen View Post
ok thanks.........(cant wait to have the new cams in there!)....

regards
Mats
Try to let the fever cool and do it right. Assembling an engine is not a toss it together project, especially if you wan more than stock power and expect the engine to survive. Don't count on a parts supplier backing an engine replacement - they have no control over how you assemble their parts, and can expect that you will user good procedures to install them correctly.

Get a copy of Jim's book and understand all it takes to make alfa engines perform well!

And yes you should weight each carillo rod and balance each end as well! Mic each pin and bearing and use plastiguage to verify exact clearances. Balance the pistons, fit the rings precisely; carefully balance the crankshaft to work correctly with the rods and pistons.

Robert
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 01:37 PM
Jim K. Jim K. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 423
Robert is right. Over the years I have bought many sets of valve springs, sometimes from the same supplier, same p/n. I'm lucky I could borrow a friends Rimac tester and measure things...most sets were different than the ones before...vendors change suppliers and eventually you get different springs. I finally got my own Rimac from eBay along with a calibration spring and that was that! There's no excuse for ruining an engine because of coil bind or some other simple unchecked parameter! You'll be surprised to see how many engines are assembled without measuring springs and many with springs previously used for umpteen thousands of miles; most people don't know springs age and suffer from fatigue like any other metal part. Racers aren't nuts when they replace valve springs every season!
Jim K.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 02:02 PM
mats andersen mats andersen is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 27
Im with you.

I will buy one straight away. Nice thing to have anyway

thanks for stopping me. It is too tempting sometimes to put it together and see how it goes That is the expensive way of finding out about things

mats
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 02:52 PM
60sRacer 60sRacer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by mats andersen View Post
... It is too tempting sometimes to put it together and see how it goes That is the expensive way of finding out about things
Many of us (me certainly) have learned this in the classical hard way - do it wrong and find out how bad the results can be! Besides, there is a lot of plain joy in KNOWING that you got it exactly right....

Robert
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008, 05:53 PM
180OUT 180OUT is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 518
Post

Mats,

Thanks for starting this thread. One of the best things about the bb is that we can have access to people with level of expertise. I'm learning a lot from reading this.

Jim,

I have to admit that I've built several motors in which I just stuck the new valve springs in without much further thought. If I could rotate the motor without encountering binding I just assumed everything was OK. In my defense I wasn't building anything close to what Mats is building---those cams really push the envelope.

A question about your cam design. Is the timing of these cams more critical than normal? I've always relied on using the Shankle template to set cam timing but I'm wondering if that is good enough on a seriously modified motor? If you have a 2L Alfa motor with, say, your cams, 46mm valves, high compression, etc., is it better (essential) to use dial indicators to get the valve timing really accurate?

Here's why I asked this. A friend, a race motor builder, was putting together a Ford twin cam for a Brabbham formula car. With the head, pistons, and cams in use the clearances got vanishingly close together. At one point in the rotational cycle there was only about 2 thou clearance between the intake and exhaust valve. Using dial indicators to "degree in" the cams was essential. Watching him build that motor was a good lesson in why all-out race motors are so expensive.
__________________
Jim
-------------
'70, 1750GTV, 2nd series
'62, Lancia Flaminia Zagato3c, 2nd series

Last edited by 180OUT; 02-02-2008 at 05:57 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2008, 01:56 AM
Jim K. Jim K. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 423
Your Brabham-assembly friend was right. The more critical you get with engine parameters the more you have to make sure you are on the safe side of things and the margins are very close. Cam timing is something that must be researched with the engine on the dyno. There is no ideal 'recipe' here, what works for me in my engine will not necessarily work in yours even if they have similar spec, they can't be exactly the same (ports, valve seats etc). When you arrive at the perfect dyno setting, write everything down and from then on those are your settings for the particular engine. Supposedly this is the ideal way, but think about this: is the temperature and pressure in the dyno room the same as the underhood temperature at the track you will happen to be in later?? This is one variable, another is water temperature which can range from a nice 78*C to more than 100*C at the track! What will happen to your carefully mapped advance curve then? Engines in the dyno room make more power than on the track at least where mere mortals are concerned, not F1 teams (where individual track conditions can be replicated).
I wrote the above to show that no matter what engine you are building you must have sufficient safety margins. Surely you must have at least 1.5-2mm travel left in valve springs at full cam lift and 2-3* more advance margin before it starts 'pinging'. Cold clearances are tighter than hot ones, they usually increase by about 0.05mm (.002"). This is not important in road cams but it does make a difference in high acceleration ramps used in modern cams (JK303 included)
If you have time to play when assembling the engine, try to find out various mechanical limits like valve-piston contact points. This will give you the cam timing envelope limits. When people talk 102*, 106* or 110* lobe centers, you'll know if you can safely try these values out.
I don't know if I answered your question here but there's one parameter many underestimate: driver preferences. Since we all drive on the street, we do like low speed torque and response, the cam timing for which is not suitable for maximum power! To me therefore there is no ideal timing, just a grey area in which you must find your optimum. This means you will ideally need a degreed crank pulley and a friend to slowly rotate the engine (or push the car in 4th) while you carefully check valve opening/closing points by rotating the followers with your fingers...when the lobe jams them, thats the opening point, when they are released, thats the closing point! Verify this a number of times (I hope your chains are both tight! You must turn the engine only in the direction of rotation when measuring) and you can accurately find lobe centers. If some think of this as utter BS, so be it, it works for me as the saying goes! (With belt drive engines you must subtract about 2* due to belt stretch).
End of long-winded Sunday speech!
Jim K.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2008, 06:37 AM
mats andersen mats andersen is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 27
Sunday speech was good though.

I have ordered a valve spring tester that will help me do this the proper way

Jim.
So, I will not listen the the Kent engineers, and just keep shimming the springs until I reach the numbers that you indicated for 0mm valvelift and 10mm valvelift. Respectively 85-90lbs - 185-195lbs

Pay no regard to the 37mm, as long as I have 1,5-2mm safety from coil bind.

This is for the JK303 cam, So you should know.

Here is a tool I made for compressing springs. I stuffed a piece of wire down into the comb.chamber to make the valve stay in place. works very well


Mats
Attached Images
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2008, 07:28 AM
Jim K. Jim K. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 423
That's the whole point behind having your own spring tester! Know the required loads and determine installed height for any spring combo as long as you're safely away from coil bind.
Jim K.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On