Mats, I won't pretend to be an expert on where you should look next for the power. But I think you are correct in your expectations of 135hp or more at the rear wheels. You may want to read (or re-read) the thread in the Spider forum on Msierts Black Spider. Murray was able to get around 160hp at the rear wheels in his streetable car. It wasn't easy or inexpensive, but then again, you already have a lot of the same work on your engine!

Erik

 

You may want to read (or re-read) the thread in the Spider forum on Msierts Black Spider. Murray was able to get around 160hp at the rear wheels in his streetable car. It wasn't easy or inexpensive, but then again, you already have a lot of the same work on your engine!

Erik

Hey Erik, it was 167 HP at the wheels

On my intake cam here is the spec's............. cam. Lift is .505 inches with 265 degree duration at .050 lift.

Mats after our first dyno run with the old exhaust system we weren't happy with the results either and we changed out the Stebro exhaust system to a custom 3" exhaust system with an engineered merge collector from Burns Stainless and had a hugh gain in HP.

 

Missing power

Mats:

The early ramp rate on the old design C&B`s are too slow. Too much overlap.
Open your lash clearances on both cams to at least .020-.021 intake & .022-.023 Exhaust..
If cams are set at specified 110 lobe centers, then advance the intake to 104 and retard exhaust to 104.
The LC specs are not for timing events, but to provide a starting point, that`s safe for the cam grinder. With a plastic wire tie check that you have a minimum piston to valve clearance of .050 intake and .075 exhaust. With Borgo 10.4 pistons, these cams should have adequate clearance at 102/102.
Do those two things then take it back to the dyno.

 

prefferably feedback based on facts

Hell, why start now?

 

Thanks

The tunerman did change the timing from what I had first setup on it. I will get the excact current timing figures. Could be timing are the bottleneck.

Still Ive got the feeling these cams wont deliver very much more not matter how they are timed though.. Does anyone have experience or knowledge about the Kent AFZL1 cams? specs are found on the kents homepage:

Kent Performance Cams Ltd

thanks

 

B&B Cam profile

Since it`s off my website here is the full profile of your cams below:
To demonstrate the early duration / overlap issues compare it to the RJR 22 lobe at early lift. This is what allows more combustion pressure to develop & timing events to be maximized.
You should be able to find a grinder in Europe to be able to grind similar profiles on the C&B cores. Typical "available grinds" from all the "Ususual Suppliers" are going to have slow lifts to not cause valve train noise, wear, and clearance issues. (They often use small base circles to allow head clearance issues. Minimum base circles should be 1.020 (26mm), and really should be at least 1.06026.9mm). Stock base circles are 1.080-1.085(27.5) C&B uses 27mm as stock. That is not correct.) Their timing (LCs) will be conservative as well.
I am not familar with the cam you ask about, however from their specs(12.3mm lobe / 11.78mm valve lift / 320 Deg dur. at .020 timing events at 102/102 LC of 58/82 82/58 indicate
116 degrees of overlap. WAY TOO MUCH! Your C&B cams set at 110/110 have 76 degrees. The cams I compare to below have timing events of 26.6-50.5/44-20 at 102/102 LCs with lash at
.008/.010. Overlap is 46.6 degrees.

I hope this helps you understand the issue better.

Mats, before going to other cams first change your LCs to the 102/102 to reduce lobe separation, and overlap.
Do check Piston/Valve clearance but from experience that should be no problem.
I`ll go out on a limb, and guess you will see at least the HP at the rear wheels you were hoping for, and about 3 to 5 over that, based on similar motor components.

C#B 12mm RjR 221 (12mm) Suggested exhaust RjR 776 (11.3mm)

---- C&B 221 776
.010 321 308 296
.020 292 282 271
.050 254 257 247
.100 228 234 222
.200 188 194 180
.300 152 152 159
.400 100 - 98 109
.450 52 - 56 -75
Max .470 .475 .445

 

thanks

So you are pretty confident that I should set the lobe centers at 102 degrees for both cams keeping the CB cams that I have, and then I will see significant results? It should be worth the try, however in Norway its $160 pr hour on the rolling road

about the kent AFZL1 cams:
Howcome do a serious cam manufacturer, design camshafts for maximum hp, for racing use without knowing that product will result in peak power gains?

Kent has 3 different cam designs for the Alfa TC engines. I would believe the racing one is intended for engines that are suppposed to make the car goes the fastest of the three.
I really respect your work and experience with camshafts, but I cannot see how they can sell high end products for racing that results in lower performance..
If no one have a good answer on that I am tempted to find out myself if those cams are "hoaks". If I get no results I will have my money back.
If greater numbers cannot be produced running those cams with any timing setup, its like selling racing slick tires with road holding capabilites simliar to regular low priced road tire....
You wouldnt be happy with such a purchase, would you?

RJ: I will get the excact current timing info from the tuner ASAP and see how far off it is from your suggested 102/102

I will let you know what happens.

eat well!

Mats

 

about the kent AFZL1 cams:
Howcome do a serious cam manufacturer, design camshafts for maximum hp, for racing use without knowing that product will result in peak power gains?

Kent has 3 different cam designs for the Alfa TC engines. I would believe the racing one is intended for engines that are suppposed to make the car goes the fastest of the three.


Mats

Richard is right(as usual)
to put race cam(high duration high rpm) in fast street engine is big mistake
to make cam like AZFL1 work on nord engine you need very well preped head very high CR like 13:1 race gaz and well designed exhaust even with that perfect setup power will be 7000 rpm + not healthy for stock internals engine other problem is 41mm exhaust vlave ...why so big? if you done valve throat and port exit by basic performance figures( 90% throat and no more tnah 95-100% port exit) you will end with overdone and large -lazy port combine this with high lift very high duration AZFL cam and there you are MASSIVE hole in mid rpm band are you running 30 degree seats? its another killer of torque

 

Cams

Kent has 3 different cam designs for the Alfa TC engines. I would believe the racing one is intended for engines that are suppposed to make the car goes the fastest of the three.

Mats,
The cams may make horsepower with "excessive" duration, but it will be a very narrow band of power with "limited" drivability. The #s for that Kent cam indicates a requirement for lots of breathing & a power band at only high RPMs. It would require a close ratio gearbox and gearing to keep in the power band.
I would far rather have 5-10 HP less and a strong flat torque curve.

The observations werte based on timing events , overlap & published duration #s. Who knows what the rest of the cam profile looks like???

But once lift & duration slightly exceed flow rate, there is only losses, not gains. The Idea to to have just enough, not too much. The old school of cam designed believed more was better. That`s not right..

Some Visuals for you
The 1st two pics are of a C&B 12mm on the left and an RJR 136 on the right. Similar lift, but faster ramp and a bit of duration where it counts.

The 3rd pic is of the RjR 136 intake with exhaust designed to go with it, the RjR 785. its about 7-10 degrees less duration in various areas of the profile, but much less early duration, ie fast ramp, less overlap.

The 4th pic is two of the most discussed cams Alfa used on street motors.
On the left is the relatively rare 1054803200051 and to the left is the 1054803200001. If you look at both obviously the 51 has more lift & duration, but they are "fat" in the early ramp which leaves them short as far as overall performance and neither suited as an exhaust because of too much overlap.. If you look at the 1st two pics you can see similar ramp shape in the C&B.

I Hope Everyone Has a Wonderful Christmas & New Years!

I will be traveling for a while so even JJ get`s a holiday!

 

1054803200051 cams

hi,
i was able to get a hold of a 2 liter motor equipped with the "rare"1054803200051 cams but haven't had a chance to run it as of yet.
what type of application is best suited for such type of a cam? daily driver, racing, rally or...? what is the lift and duration of the cam? unfortunately, i can't get a hold of the previous owner or the engine builder since it's been awhile back.
thanks!

 

thanks for all the replies so far

Rest of the engine is ready for wilder stuff though, and the block internals are Pspruell Je pistons and carillo rods.

ABout the rroad results I posted, ive got the cam timing info:
Timing was 106degrees LC for inlet and 112 LC for exhaust. LSeperation=109.


Firstly we are consedering puttin RJ's theory to the test and run some pulls with a 102 / 102 LC's on the current CB 12/292 cams.

I am starting to believe the JK303 cams is whats best for my project, as my compression might not be high enough to benefit from the ZL1 cams. And as Msiert experienced, that the initial superwild cam was abandonded by the tuner partly because it wouldnt have enough comp to make it run low down.
And the narrow peak power band will possibly make me regret the choice. Would work well on hi speed tracks of course

The JK303's, I believe will be very similar to the cams Msiert are now running on his 167hp engine. Kent profiles are similiar to the ones visualised by alfar7. flatter nose and steeper ramp for more duration on high lift.

Does the abouve sounds reasonable to you guys?


Sorry for another tread on this everlasting topic, but within a month or two we will have anwers in terms of numbers, and thats also why this is fun

mats


mats

 

Cam Stuff

1054803200051 cams

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hi,
i was able to get a hold of a 2 liter motor equipped with the "rare"1054803200051 cams but haven't had a chance to run it as of yet.
what type of application is best suited for such type of a cam? daily driver, racing, rally or...? what is the lift and duration of the cam? unfortunately, i can't get a hold of the previous owner or the engine builder since it's been awhile back.
thanks!
__________________
benji
Bebji: They are street, daily drivers. These are profiled on my website. Scroll down the "How To" link a bit till you get to cam stuff

Mats:

ABout the rroad results I posted, ive got the cam timing info:
Timing was 106degrees LC for inlet and 112 LC for exhaust. LSeperation=109.

With the above & engine components, might I suggest:

The exhaust setting is currently the worst damaging factor to performance, but why was it set there? Valve clearance on Paul`s pistons??
Before setting them. First retard the exhaust cam as far as you can using a
.075 thick plastic wire tie between V&P. That is the point where you can feel the tie interfering, but you can still roll the motor through. That is as far
as it can be retarded. That point also should be the setting for the cam if you were to want upper RPM performance more than a good torque curve. (Torque wins races, HP sells cars).
If the exhaust can clear the valves at (say) 100 degrees, then 102 is enough I would think on the exhaust. Not that you won`t try 100 But don`t say I havent warned you about Valve float at high rpm with clearance at the minimum. The piston is chasing the valve closed. A little float (missed shift or selecting the wrong gear) and you have the repair kiss!

Intakes are not so critical as the valve is following the piston down, but it does not need to be set at the minimum (.050 intake) except where valve cutouts are inadequate.

Intake:, this side you can start at 104 or go to 102 straight off. The less overlap that leaves you happy is best as torque will be better. I will be traveling & will chech periodically to see if you had good results.

The JK303 is pretty close to my #136 that Ed is playing with on his car (Alfaparticle), except it (the 303) is not as fast lift, and above .350 it has less duration when the valves are flowing best.

What will you use as an exhaust cam? Your C&B 12 mm should be reasonable.
COLOR="Red"]As you move & change cams be sure to check Piston/valve clearance.

Alfaparticle`s testing might be worth an email to him. Ed is very knowledgeable, although he has a spot of difficulty speaking our language.
He types it well however!
Note that I said "our" language. He`s a bit Briddish![/COLOR]

 

The (1st pic) is the intake cam that I'm using.

The (2nd pic) is the intake cam that was too wild next to the stock S-4 intake cam.

The (3rd pic) is the exhaust cam that I'm using

 

Cams

The (1st pic) is the intake cam that I'm using.

The (2nd pic) is the intake cam that was too wild next to the stock S-4 intake cam.

The (3rd pic) is the exhaust cam that I'm using


What cams are they? Your intake & exhaust appear the same grind?

Merry Christmas

Rj

 

What cams are they?

Rj

I thought Schwitter's told me that in an email but went through a bazillion emails from him and couldn't find it? I do remember him saying that they were custom grinds.

This is what Schwitter's said about the new intake cam:

The intake cam was so wild that we did not get enough vacuum at idle and just above idle

I am also going to change the intake cam as we discussed to a slightly milder grind. The one that is in there now is a full race ++. Perhaps I picked something a little too radical. The new one should still give you great power all the way to 8000. It will also have quite a bit more torque in the lower range and pull up from idle more smoothly.

I am expediting a new camshaft for the intake to give you the VVT. Planning to have about the same lift with slightly shorter duration. This will help the engine get through the transition from idle to medium rpm. I think I was a little over ambitious in selecting the first cam which is just too much of an all out race cam. This new one will be a good selection without sacrificing top end power.

 

FWIW: The following are parts of several email's from Schwitter's during the adjustment phase of the VVT's cam timming during the project.

An Alfa engine likes 100 to 102 degrees of Lobe Center intake timing for maximum power and with some cams even 99 degrees is best. But this hurts midrange torque some. Now with the VVT's we should be able to get the best of both

.......................................................................................................................................

I readjusted the cams after considering the results we got at the dyno runs. The last run that we made, when the head gasket failed, was the only run that was made with the cam advance "on". Both the intake and exhaust were "on" the entire rpm range. Power was off a little at the top end and very close to equal in the midrange on this run although the run ended about 400 rpm early.

The motivation for making the changes I made was that in my experience and there is info from many other Alfa motor tuners that these engines like a cam timing of 99 to 102 for the intake and 102-108 for the exhaust. (This is a number representing the midpoint of the cam, actually it is the number of degrees After Top Dead Center for the intake and Before Top Dead Center for the exhaust that the cam is at maximum lift. So the intake usually likes about 100 degrees ATDC. We ran with the intake at 105 and got very good hp. When we advanced the intake to 101 degrees we saw a slight drop at the top end. I would have expected a gain in the midrange and some drop at the top end but remember we advanced the exhaust also. This may be what prevented us from seeing a gain in the mid range. Perhaps the exhaust should be advanced only at the top end and the intake only advanced in the midrange. This is what conventional wisdom (articles on cam timing) seem to indicate.

.........................................................................................................................................

I had the intake set up to be at 105 or 99. We will make more runs testing the cam advance to find out where the best on and off points are. Same with the exhaust. We also want to make runs independantly so that we really know how they are reacting. We can change the advance or the static settings also if we need to.

 

Thanks

hmmm. thanks Alfar7
I will need to let all that info get digested.

Msiert, do you know how your cam timing was setup at the incredible 167hp run? the 303 cams seem almost identical to yours, and as our engines are quite similar apart from some porting differences it would be nice to try to go from there.

regards
Mats

 

Thanks

Msiert, do you know how your cam timing was setup at the incredible 167hp run? the 303 cams seem almost identical to yours, and as our engines are quite similar apart from some porting differences it would be nice to try to go from there.

regards
Mats

Mats,

I can't find anything in my notes about the finial cam timing but I believe it was 104 for the intake and exhaust. I'll ask Steve if he remembers or has a record of it and email you.

Wish you the best and hope you had a Merry Christmas

 

I have made a decision to keep searching for power using the JK303 camshafts.
I will post my results in this thread as I get results.
And next time I blow my headgasket I will do some further portjob and head tweaks.


happy new year to all and thanks for all the help

mats

 

Hi Matts:
I am the furrinner that Richard referred to. You are welcome to compare experiences with me. I currently have the RJR136 intake at 102 degrees and a CB147 10.92 on the exhaust, also at 102 degrees. I have lots of piston clearance with Motronic 10:1 pistons. I plan to move the intake cam to 100 degrees but that will not be for a couple of weeks as I am travelling to Colorado for the new year.
I have not had the car on a dyno. My testing is done on an uphill stretch of interstate.
Ed Prytherch

 

Hey Mats,

In your original post you mention that your porting was similar to Jim K's book but you added a margine of safety. Did you get any CFM's on you head after it was done?

Here is the flows on mine:

I tried to get more information for Steve but he didn't seem interested to giving them to me by saying it took many years of working on these heads to get this experience.

Here is the information I got:

Here's the numbers from the flow test of your head. They are at the right of the other data. You'll need to chart them to compare since I took the readings at different valve lifts. I use 5%, 10%, 15%, etc of the valve diameter for the lift numbers. Also, I used 16 inches of vacuum but I converted it to the theoretical numbers for 28 inches of vacuum.

There are formulas to predict HP and I should run the numbers to see what it shows.

Lift Intake
in. cfm
0.087 62.0
0.173 83.2
0.260 152.8
0.346 186.9
0.433 198.8
0.519 207.9

The .173 looks a little funny and when I ask about it he said he does calibrate his equipment before each run but this may indicate it was off. Therefore I don't know how good theses numbers are?

 

I am starting to believe the JK303 cams is whats best for my project

Mats, it might be a good idea to have the Rockwell hardness of your Kent cams checked before you install them. A friend raced the JK303 cam and had his heat-treated before he used them in his car. In another case, two consecutive Kent TR-6 cams failed shortly after installation, thereby ruining two expensive motors.

Kent is a well known and reputable company and what applies to a regrind (TR-6) may not apply to a billet cam (JK303). The JK303 you buy is probably quite safe to use, nonetheless and just to be sure, I'd have the cam checked for hardness before I put in in a new motor.

 

[Foghorn_Leghorn]

I say, that was a joke, son, you're supposed to laugh.

[/Foghorn Leghorn]

Now back to Mat's engine...

 

thanks for sharing useful tips and vast experience. especially on cam hardness. Heat treathed you say?
I would expect the cams would be ready to fit? How can I double check this?
I might give the engineers at Kent a call about it


I understand that there are many uncertain factors about of port shape, inlet lengths and exhaust specs. Right now I will take one thing at the time, starting off with what I've got.
I will fit the 303's, set them at 106/106 and go from there. If I achieve 140horses or more at the wheels im happy. around 170Nm at the wheels would also make my day.
Changing exhaust, and develop porting will have to wait. I need to use the car as well, hehe:

The light car already is fast and will do good on the track for next season.
handling is in the class of F430 at least.

I'll have the cams in a couple of weeks and I will let you now what happens after the dyno sessions


the unused AFZl1's are for sale


regards
Mats

mats.andersen@hjemme.no

 

thanks for sharing useful tips and vast experience. especially on cam hardness. Heat treathed you say? I would expect the cams would be ready to fit? How can I double check this? I might give the engineers at Kent a call about it

Hi, Mats:

You are right about the vast amont of experience found on the Alfabb. Mine, however, is conspicuously modest: I'm just passing on some info gleaned from a couple of friend's experience. Still, seeing two expensive TR-6 motors ruined was pretty dramatic evidence to me that if I used Kent cams I'd certainly want to know if the hardness was up to standard.

Rockwell hardness is a standard engineering test for hardness. Most production oriented automotive machines shops can't do this kind of test, however, although they may tell you who can. If you know someone in the engineering department of a local university, they can do a hardness check quite easily in their labs. Machine shops doing prototype work, aircraft oriented machine shops, and industrial testing facilities can also do the test.

By all means call the Kent engineers. They may have some useful information for your but, then, perhaps not.

 

Rolling road session nr 2

I did get some free hours on the dyno to put Richard J's theory to the test.
we made moved cams to lobecenters 102/102. Previous setup in. 107 ex 112

Here is what followed:

worse low speed characteristics. less power and less torqe
slightly more torque and about similar power in the midrange
from 3500-5000 power and torque where up by 1-3 horses.
above 5000 the power fell dramatically and at 7000 power was 20 hp down from the first setup...this is not good as here is the racing rpm range.
With the first timing we had power didnt fall noticably even at beyond 7500.
So more overlap doesnt always mean more power at top..

To get peak horsepower at second setup timing was moved to 34 degrees versus 28 degrees for the originial timing

So we concluded that intake at around 106-108- and exhaust at 109-114 is best timing for this engine in its current state.

mats

 

Did you read about Per's car in this thread? http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-rebuilding/43453-2-litre-rebuild-gone-right.html

It's a similar build, a little milder probably, but yields more power. I think he is using the same cams as you.

Hope it helps.

Bryan

 

thanks, that was helpful


mats

 

Ok its been a while, however we have managed to get some usable power from the 2 litre nord. After many hours banging the head against the wall.

changes made:
2" downpipes, 2.5" exhaust, a lots of experimenting with cam timing.
12:1 compression
85mm pistons. total seal rings.
cams are JK 303 inlet and exhaust. intake 100degrees exhaust 112 degress.


Peak power we got was 157 hp DIN at 7200, and 185Nm at 4500 at the wheels.
We settled for another combination that gave us more usable power though. with a 150hp DIN peak at the wheels.
I have attached the graph. Hp is kept all the way to 8000.
It is DIN corrected. We used 12% driveline loss.

Engine feels really strong. This is the first time I have felt a NORD engine really pull hard

I AM VERY HAPPY!! yaahoo!

we plan to put the kent RACE AFZL1 cam on the inlet next time. To give us even more from 4500 and up. or at least we hope that will happen

mats