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2000 Nord Engine Rebuild Thread

111K views 336 replies 33 participants last post by  alfaparticle 
#1 ·
I finally began tearing down the motor i pulled from my '73 GTV 2000. The car was a one owner, 55k mile car which so far has been in surprisingly good shape. No rusted bolts, no cracked rubber parts, very limited rust. The motor showed compression in the 170-180's, good oil pressure and the valves were all within spec (.013"-.017" with the larger numbers on the exhaust side). Timing looked to be nearly spot on but not exact (see pics)

So why I am i tearing it down? Cause it's on a stand. And I want to. And I want to know what's going on in there and re-gasket the whole thing and be sure I know what I'm dealing with before I put it back into the freshly sprayed engine bay.

I'm going to post my progress here, along with a few questions. So far I've pulled the head off (no prob after a few whacks with a mallet), removed the oil pan as well as the accessories, except the spica pump and intake manifold.

Questions so far...

1. Do the #2&3 injectors need to come out to remove the intake manifold? They are in there GOOD and I don't love the idea of messing with them, but I can't see a way to get the intake manifold off otherwise...

2. The only concerning marks I've found so far is some gauging on the inside front of the valve cover that must have been causes by the chain. What could have lead to this? (see pic).

3. What is your degreasing procedure? I have a bottle of marine clean, which I soaked the valve cover in. It worked decently, but not amazingly well. I suppose I could increase the concentration. What do you all do for parts that can't be soaked (ie block and head)? I also have a bottle of "greased lightening" from the autozone. Strangely, it says "not for use on aluminium or aluminium alloys". Is aluminium sensative to typical degreasers?

4. I'm trying to decide if I should replace the piston rings. The liners look super clean and as I said the compression was great with no oil burning. In short, they don't 'need' replacing. But then again, neither did any of the gaskets. Is it prudent for me to replace them anyway? Anything to watch out for?

5. Do my pistons show a 'normal' amount of carbon deposits? Is it worth cleaning these off if I do take them out for new rings? How does one clean piston crowns?

thanks all
 

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#2 · (Edited)
1. Do the #2&3 injectors need to come out to remove the intake manifold? They are in there GOOD and I don't love the idea of messing with them, but I can't see a way to get the intake manifold off otherwise...
I don't do Spica, so I can't speak from experience. But, if you can't get at the nuts without removing the injectors, then I guess you either cut the studs with an oxyacetylene torch, or remove the injectors.

2. The only concerning marks I've found so far is some gauging on the inside front of the valve cover that must have been causes by the chain. What could have lead to this?
ALL used Alfa engine have those marks. Your's don't look particularly bad. They result from a PO allowing the timing chain to get too loose. Not a big deal.

3. What is your degreasing procedure? .... Is aluminium sensative to typical degreasers?
I brush everything with gasoline (wear gloves, don't work next to your gas hot water heater), and then remove the gas-n-grease with Simple Green.

4. I'm trying to decide if I should replace the piston rings. The liners look super clean and as I said the compression was great with no oil burning. In short, they don't 'need' replacing. But then again, neither did any of the gaskets. Is it prudent for me to replace them anyway? Anything to watch out for?
Well, it would be "prudent" to buy new pistons & liners, regrind and re-nitride the crank, install new bearings, replace both chains, install new oil & water pumps, etc. etc. But, with the compression and oil pressure figures you quote, perhaps you can get by with less. It's a trade-off between how many miles your current rings will last versus how long a new set would last, and how much you enjoy pulling engines.

5. Do my pistons show a 'normal' amount of carbon deposits? Is it worth cleaning these off if I do take them out for new rings? How does one clean piston crowns?
Yea, they always look kind of cruddy. You could try to wire brush them off while they are at TDC. Maybe turn the engine upside-down on the stand, so that the hard carbon bits don't fall between the piston & liner, or down into the oil galleys. Then too, that sort of carbon is just going to re-build up after you reassemble it, so.....

Incidently, I don't love your system of string liner retainers. A section of pipe + a washer, held down with a head nut, is a more traditional (and beefy) solution.
 
#3 ·
Hey Alfajay - I think you got hung up on there right as you were about to unlock the mysteries of piston ring replacement...? Thanks for the info on the chain rubbing.
 
#5 ·
Once upon a time I tried to use full strength "Purple Power" degreaser - the kind you can get in 5 gal buckets at Advanced Auto - as a parts soaker for an Alfa transmission. It worked great for the iron / steel bits, and completely ate the aluminum case. I had to find a new one. So, don't do that.

WRT ring replacement, you need to decide early on whether you want to remove the liners or not. This can be a nightmare - I've got my own little trick to pull them that has never failed to remove them, but it usually requires either replacing or boring the liners. If the liners are in good shape and there's no evidence of mixing coolant and oil you can just pull the pistons, run a hone through the liners (being careful not to hone the crank bearing surfaces!) and reinstall. Others can make more specific recommendations on what kind of hone works best.

Tools? In addition to a hone, you'll need a ring compressor. A universal ratcheting style will do but for my next rebuild I'm definitely picking up one of Paul Spruell's special Alfa compressors. You'll need 84mm. I agree with Jay on the rope trick - that's not going to cut it to hold in the cylinders. If you turn the crank like that there's a very good chance that one or more of the liners will pop out, whether you want it to or not. Then you'll be left replacing the liner o-rings and at least one cylinder will be so hard to remove you'll swear it's welded in. A piece of pipe and some washers will easily mimic the Alfa factory tool - you can see how that works from the attached pic.

Best,
Jason
 

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#6 ·
Hey there. This looks conspicuously familiar! I completed a rebuild on my 73 2000 a few months ago.

For degreasing I strongly suggest Eagle one mag wheel cleaner (recommended elsewhere on the BB). I tried heaps of stuff from degreaser through to citrus, kero, metho, fuel etc. Nothing came close to the mag wheel cleaner.

Cheers
 
#7 ·
since you now have it open anyway (seeing the basic engine you started with I would have opted for just a head removal first..) I would replace both the chains, all the bearings, and probably the pistons rings too. So then you have to get the bores honed.
Check the valveguides, clean everything out. clean the oil lines IN the cranck too, so the plugs have to be drilled out, and after cleaning put in again.

And when everything is back together I would opt for first running in oil and after that a full synth 10W60.

Running is I do if possible like this (is for my racing engines the way I do it)
fisrst 30 min on a dyno building up to 4500-5000 rpm, after that a few runs tipping 7000, after that the testrun and correction of ignition (which has been on the safe side until this moment) and carb jetting.

After that a trackday is nice, 4 runs to build up the rpm and the time it hits the high rpm. After that the running in oil is taken out and the 10W60 in, and the oil cooler refitted.
And I probably get a lot of comments on this. but in my opinion (and experience)this works verry well. Better run in a short time with running in oil than take a few thousend km/miles with normal oil.
 
#8 ·
Thanks for the opinions everyone. I keep going back and forth on this one. One the one hand, bearings and rings are not that expensive - but on the other, installing them right is slightly more complicated and required honing, etc. Realistically, as a weekend or summer car, my gtv is unlikely to see more than a few thousand miles a year if that. Since the motor was in such good shape, I'm going to reseal it, clean it out, get the sludge out of the oil pan and put her back together.

To help me feel better about this decision, I considered taking the pistons out to examine the rings and lands. Would this and reinserting them (w/o replacing the rings) require honing the liners? Or can I simply disassemble, examine, reassemble?

I also feel like having pulled the motor once means if I ever need to pull it again, I'll be able to bang the whole job out in 2 weekends.

More pictures, and likely, questions, to come.

Oh and I agree, my liner retaining technique isn't the best, though I do like its hand made quality. I gave the liners a good yank to see if they were loose before trusting this technique but didn't think about how turning the motor over might push the liners out. Gonna cut some pvc nxt weekend.
 
#9 · (Edited)
To help me feel better about this decision, I considered taking the pistons out to examine the rings and lands. Would this and reinserting them (w/o replacing the rings) require honing the liners? Or can I simply disassemble, examine, reassemble?
In theory you should be able to do that w/o honing as the rings and cylinders are a 'matched set' and seasoned so re-bedding that which is already bedded wouldn't be neccisary. (I've done it myself successfully on other types of engines)

Honing may even take the last bit of life out of the old rings as part of the bedding process is wearing a bit off the surface of the rings, so if the gaps were close to the max then a little more off the outside of them could push things over into the too wide a gap zone.

On the flip side, a really light hone might not hurt to help re-seal any potential blowby leaks and 're-sharpen' the contact edges of the rings.

6 of one, half dozen of the other.


Really, as long as it's apart, might as well hone the cylinders (after checking for out of shapedness) and throw a new set of rings at it. Then there won't be any question of the need. ;)
 
#11 ·
It's a bit more complex than that with the primary issue being the cross-hatch pattern angle.

Some brands of rings are quite specific about that angle and to accomplish it with a great degree of accuracy requires a special machine.

Still, a general honing can be done with the standard off the shelf hone and a variable speed drill to get pretty close to a 45 degree pattern. (slow revs are better and fine stones cut less)

Honestly, if you've never honed a cylinder before, or even seen it done, prolly the best thing you can do is not to do it at all or farm it out to a shop as it's easier to screw it all up than it is to get right.
 
#13 ·
Questions so far...

1. Do the #2&3 injectors need to come out to remove the intake manifold? They are in there GOOD and I don't love the idea of messing with them, but I can't see a way to get the intake manifold off otherwise...

just last night I pulled the Spica Intake manifold from a head that I'll be rebuilding. No problem leaving the injectors in place; remove the 5 nuts that are easily accessible, then just use a standard open end 13 mm or 1/2" wrench to loosen the two nuts next to the injectors, undo them as much as you can until the injectors interfere, then break the manifold free from gasket, then continue to pull the manifold away from the head as you continue to loosen the nuts. As the manifold pulls away from the head, you will have the room to remove the nuts.

Best regards,
 
#14 ·
totally genius...
thanks

Questions so far...

1. Do the #2&3 injectors need to come out to remove the intake manifold? They are in there GOOD and I don't love the idea of messing with them, but I can't see a way to get the intake manifold off otherwise...

just last night I pulled the Spica Intake manifold from a head that I'll be rebuilding. No problem leaving the injectors in place; remove the 5 nuts that are easily accessible, then just use a standard open end 13 mm or 1/2" wrench to loosen the two nuts next to the injectors, undo them as much as you can until the injectors interfere, then break the manifold free from gasket, then continue to pull the manifold away from the head as you continue to loosen the nuts. As the manifold pulls away from the head, you will have the room to remove the nuts.

Best regards,
 
#16 ·
Progress

I followed the advice of many on this forum and bough some Eagle One Mag Wheel cleaner, which is basically a mix of acids, and wheeled my motor outside for a de-greasing. Unbelievably satisfying. If it weren't for the nastiness of the chemicals involved I'd say it almost rivals dry-ice interior tar insulation removal for satisfying factor. It's almost too easy.

Now for a few more questions...

1. It has been mentioned that there is a VW flywheel locking tool that works for the nord, which is inexpensively available at US dealerships - does anyone have a part number or description? Alternately - since I'm not removing the crank for this rebuild, I really just need to take the pulley off so I can replace the water pump + gasket. Is there a way to do this with the crank pulley on?

2. I found a bit more gauging from the chain, this time on the inside exhaust side of the head. I'm presuming this too is par for the course?

The clean motor sitting in my garage is making me feel optimistic about this restoration.
 

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#18 · (Edited)
Alternately - since I'm not removing the crank for this rebuild, I really just need to take the pulley off so I can replace the water pump + gasket. Is there a way to do this with the crank pulley on?

Yes, there's 2 offending studs at the 11~ish o'clock position of the crank when viewed from the front that prevent total removal of the pump.

Double nut the studs, back them out, and the pump will come clear quite easily without messing with the crank pulley at all. Run the studs back in after the swap, or take the route many others have and just replace them with bolts.


FWIW though, as long as you've gone so far as to pull the lump, it wouldn't be a bad plan to try and get the pulley off regardless of the water pump onnaconna it'll give an excellent oppertunity to change the front seal, which really kinda sucks to replace with the engine in the bay. (it can be done, but it ain't no fun doing it)
 
#20 ·
Thinking about this more... since I have a full engine gasket set and want to be thorough about this, I do feel compelled to take the pulley off.

My question is... how realistic is it to expect I can get the nut off with the engine on a stand? I have an enormous breaker bar, 3/4" drive socket set and will buy either an alfa or VW flywheel locking tool. So far every 'tough to crack nut' has been relatively compliant on my car (ie, head came off easily, etc). Still, I'm wondering if anyone has done this on a stand w/o tipping the whole thing over?
 
#21 ·
I don't think that you have any chance of loosening the crank shaft pulley nut with a breaker bar with the engine on a stand. My advice, pick up an inexpensive electric impact wrench from Harbor Freight or equivalent and go at with that. It may take a while, but eventually it should come loose.

Best regards,
 
#24 ·
Yes that's the H.F. impact wrench that I have. At first I didn't think it would work, but I kept at it and after about a minute of use, the bolt finally broke free. If you're concerned about its effectiveness, you can always try your local tool rental; they probably have a 3/4" electric impact wrench which should work without question. But at this point, with your engine on a stand, an impact wrench is your only choice.

Best regards,
 
#25 ·
Presuming there is no trick to how ft-lbs are reported, the HF elec impact seems to meet or beat the $100-300 offerings from the name brands. With the 20% coupon its pretty much irresistible. Out of curiosity, what are other alfa 105 jobs that the impact comes in handy for (or should I say - what jobs are basically impossible without it?) Trying to decide if I need the full socket set. I'm doing a full rebuild, and a full suspension and brake job will be next.
 
#26 ·
Might not hurt to have for some suspension component dissasembly.
Inner upper control arm bolts, trunion to differential housing, and trailing arms come to mind right off.

Granted they won't go back together with one, but it can make tearing down pretty easy when compared to manual wrenches.

There's always wheels to be removed from all sorts of vehicles too, but whether that is enough to cause the need for a whole set of sockets is up to you. Certainly there will be 2~3 that would be in regular use.
 
#27 ·
Thank you, that was all the enabling I needed. Harbor Freight has no far never let me down... curious to see how their electric tools compare to the far, far, far more expensive competition. After the 20% coupon the electric impact wrench is going to be about $35. Crazy. I'll let you all know how it goes with the block on the engine stand, for the record.
 
#31 ·
locking the flywheel

Okay dumb question that I can't answer myself because I can't make it to my garage this week...

I bought a VW flywheel lock tool for $6. I can't figure out how exactly it locks the flywheel. Furthermore, since I already have the engine mounted to a stand by the bellhousing bolts with the flywheel removed... I'm wondering if this will work for me, and if not, are there ANY options for locking the crank so I can remove the pulley? Bought a HF impact wrench.
 

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#32 ·
Looking at this closer, I'm guessing that the flywheel locking tool bolts to the bellhousing bolts and locks the flywheel by engaging the starter motor teeth?

Since this is not an option for me right now - is there anything wrong with stopping the crank from turning by wedging a piece of wood between the block and a crank journal?
 
#33 ·
A bellhousing bolt goes through the hole in the middle and the "teeth" on either end go between the teeth of the flywheel, so no you can't use it.
I don't know whether it would work for you but you could try to use a version to what worked for me. I took a length of bar stock that was long enough to extend diagonally past the bellhousing bolts and drilled holes in it that allowed me to bolt it to the flywheel in two places where the pressure plate bolted on. The engine would then turn until it hit the flywheel studs but no further. You could try the same thing but bolt it to two of the crankshaft holes.
Lousy description of a simple process :)
 
#34 ·
If you're hanging the engine off the bellhousing fixture points and the flywheel has already been removed you can get the crank locked by nabbing a bar or rod that is long enough to get from corner to corner of the stand mount points, run some bolts into flywheel mount holes of the crank so that they're engaged well but have a couple inches protruding (as in stock bolts won't work)

Use the bar locked into the protruding bolts and wedged against the mount points to lock the crank from turning.


For myself, I've never been fond of wedging anything between the block and rod journals as there's the slim chance that the crank could end up a bit tweaked afterwards.
 
#36 ·
progress...

Well my rebuild has followed the path that many do, and grown slightly in scope since I started. I've been toying with the idea of new pistons and liners, but after tearing everything down and finding it in good shape, I can't justify the additional approx $575 cost.

I have decided to replace the piston rings and all bearings. Again, these items were in good shape and the motor did not burn fluids, but I want to build a durable car that I am confident taking a road trips in, and its less than $200 to replace all of the above, plus i've never done it before and want to try something new. So I'm going for it.

I measured all the crank journals and they are within spec - so I plan to order the standard bearing kit and some plastiguage.

I need a little help with the piston rings before ordering new onws...
Can someone clarify what critical dimensions I should check on the pistons to be sure they are re-usable with new rings? I know I have to check the ring to cylinder wall clearances once the new rings are installed - but are there be critical dims for the height of the grooves for each three rings? I can't find any in the Brooklands. Mine measured approx:
.065" Top
.070" Middle
.175" Bottom

I've posted pics of the pistons - would appreciate your comment as I am not familiar with what "normal wear" on pistons looks like.

Finally - any comment on what rings to go with? Any reason to buy anything besides these guys: Alfa Romeo, Fiat and Lancia Piston Ring Set ?
 

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#41 ·
update!



Thanks for asking...

work has taken over life temporarily... so I'm still in the process of my rebuild. I posted a new thread with my latest findings... but will cut-and-paste here to get all of your take on it... basically I found that the top piston ring groove on each piston is unevenly worn, such that it is in spec when measured on the wrist pin axis, but about .003"-.004" over spec when measured on the thrust axis. This means I can't use spacers or thicker rings... so it seems the two options are new P+L kit, or just re-ring and hope for the best. here's the full post:

-----------------------

After 3 months of working too much I finally got back to the motor for my 73 GTV project. I took a close look at piston rings today and am wondering if these numbers are healthy. The motor had 55k miles on it when I got the car. Motor ran, but car was mostly apart, so I couldn't really road test it, but compression was good and I saw no oil in exhaust. This is my first motor rebuild, so I don't have an intuitive sense of what is "okay" and what is not.

I'm mostly concerned with the top ring groove, which seems to be somewhat over spec, and therefore so are the ring-groove clearances. I left my new piston rings at home, but remember reading something about a spacer being available to compensate for out of spec grooves? What do you all recommend? I would prefer not to replace pistons/liners, but will if necessary. I'm trying to limit scope-creep on this project but obviously don't want to do skimp and ruin the rebuild.

Ring Gap:
EXISTING RINGS measured in existing bores:
all over .03"!? (way over spec .0118"-.0177")

Notes: I began by taking the existing rings off the pistons, then inserting them in their respective bores using the piston. The ring gap on all of them was HUGE - does this matter?. I have a few books on engine rebuilding, but none talk about what to expect from old piston rings. Does this suggest anything besides normal wear? My hope is to use the existing pistons and liners.

NEW HASTINGS RINGS measured in existing bores:
top compression ring gap: between .018"-.020" (close to spec, .0118"-.0177")
middle oil scraper ring gap: between .017"-.018" (close to spec, 0118"-.0177" )

Notes: this seems like a good sign... but I haven't honed the bores yet so I suppose the gaps will get very slightly larger. Is this okay?

Ring Lands (aka height of grooves) measured on existing pistons:
top ring groove: between .060"-.065" (just above spec, .060"-.061")
middle ring groove: between .068"-.071 (close to spec, .069"-.070" )
bottom ring groove: between .175-.178 (close to spec, .177"-.178")

notes - seems like the top ring lands are on the large side. how bad is this?

Piston ring to groove clearance (I think the alfa tech spec calls it End play of rings in grooves)

EXISTING RINGS:
top ring: between .006"-.007" (over spec, .0014" - .0026")
middle ring: between .002-.003 (close to spec, .0014"-.0026")
bottom ring: between .002-.0025 (close to spec, .0010-.0022)

notes: predictably, the top ring to groove clearance is over spec.

Ring gap & side clearance measurements were taken with feeler gauges, ring groove heights with a mitutoyo .001" caliper, read several times around the piston (but still probably not as accurate as an inside micrometer).
 
#39 ·
i use one of those vw things just a month or so ago..it's easy.. just put the big flywheel lock on the flywheel, on the drivers side of the block, and run the bolt thru the upper bolt hole in the block.. it will be on the drivers side upper bolt hole, just below the head.. tighin, and go for it..one thing there is a isde that will work better than the other, just test fit it.. is; not really all that hard.. hey i did it..:):)
 
#40 ·
hey i just noticed.. you are wearing gloves.. you are going to upset the ' alfa' gods.. they require you to blead a little to make the car work well.. ask anyone here.. a little loss of blood= great running car.
 
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