123Ignition Revisited - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #16 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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How does the lack of vacuum advance affect fuel economy...say, vs. a new ICU that had both a programmable curve and a MAP sensor?

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post #17 of 56 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 02:05 PM
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2L curves

I plotted out 4 of the curves from the data supplied by Bertonemorten. I standardized the Shankle, Bosch ..006 and Bosch ...045 to 36 degrees full advance and the JK to 34 since that was his intention (I think).
I tried to post a bigger graph but the file size limit bit me. If there is a better way of posting an excel graph, let me know. I did this by pasting from excel into a paint prgram to create a .bmp file.
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post #18 of 56 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaparticle View Post
I plotted out 4 of the curves from the data supplied by Bertonemorten. I standardized the Shankle, Bosch ..006 and Bosch ...045 to 36 degrees full advance and the JK to 34 since that was his intention (I think).
I tried to post a bigger graph but the file size limit bit me. If there is a better way of posting an excel graph, let me know. I did this by pasting from excel into a paint prgram to create a .bmp file.
Open your .BMP file in Paint and save it as a .JPG. You'll be able to post a much bigger image without running into the size limit.

-Jason

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post #19 of 56 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 06:53 PM
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OK Jason. If this is better then you get the credit.
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76 Suzuki GT500

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #20 of 56 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 10:19 AM
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Very usefull info

Thank you so very much, this was just the kind of info i needed.

I'm currently using program number2 in my spider 2000, but it advances to much on low revs(i already saw that with my timing lamp) what i didn't know was that the advancecurve simply stops at 32 degrees, which is to soon, it should run up to 38 degrees. So I'll be thrying one of the other curves, with that the excel document is very usefull!!I don't have to try them all!!

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Originally Posted by Bertonemorten View Post
Hello !

101 Alfa Mike kindly forwarded the measurements to me , and I have organised them in a excel-sheet, see attached file. A question: My car has a 0231 110 041 JF4 Bosch cast iron distributor, so I currently use curve no. 7 called JF4. However by comparing the curves, I found that curves 4 (0231 110 041), 5 (0231 110 044), 8 (0231 129 032) and 9 (0231 129 034) are identical to curve 7. What are the differences between these distributors ? Does some of them utilise vacuum advance, maybe in different "rates" ? The JF4-programme has no vacuum advance.
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post #21 of 56 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 02:58 PM
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Just advance it 6 degrees and you will have 38 degrees full advance.
I am using the Bosch ..045 curve with 38 degrees max and it works fine - no pinging on 89 octane with 10:1 pistons and high lift cams.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
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76 Suzuki GT500

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #22 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2009, 04:54 PM
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chart

I took the data posted by Morten Svendsen and charted all the curves, adjusted so they all max out at 38 deg. This is the same as rotating the distributor to achieve 38 degrees max with each of the settings. Lets you compare the curves.
There are some curves that I deleted, these all appeared to be mere duplicates. So much for the claim of 16 curves available. There appear to only be 8 to me.
I may have made a mistake in making this, please let me know if there are any erors. And note that I have no information as to whether this chart is currently what 123ignition provides with their product. Comments?
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post #23 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2009, 05:13 PM
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That is a good presentation. The four that I posted are the ones that are intended for 2L engines. The curves that start with very little advance on your graph are for smaller engines that need more max advance. From a practical point of view, there are 4 curves for 2L engines and 4 for smaller ones.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #24 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2009, 05:32 PM
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Ed I'd be curious for more detail on your comments... I mean, why would the smaller engines need less initial advance?
I was lookin at these as I have occasional problems with pinging at mid rpm on a big hill near my home (20 % grade!). Id be curious to try a curve with less advance or a less steep curve. Curve A actually looks pretty interesting. Of course, I haven't mapped my current distributor, so I have no idea how curve A would compare to my current curve.
It does seem like a rather random collection of curves, from a tuner standpoint.
C

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post #25 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2009, 07:13 PM
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Small Alfa engines need more maximum advance. So if you move their curves to give 42 degrees or so then the static advance will be similar to that of a 2L with 36-38 degrees.

I have run the Bosch 006, the Bosch 045 and the Shankle curves with my 2L motor. It is quite hot, I would guess around 150 HP. The 006 gave sluggish response, poor fuel mileage and the slowest idle that you can imagine. I could not detect a lot of difference between the other two. The 045 has a better idle and I have had the max advance up to 40 degrees without pinging. I imagine that the Shankle curve would be more likely to ping with that amount of max advance. I only ran the Shankle curve with 36 degrees.
I have settled for the 045 with 38 degrees max advance. It seems to have a bit more above 6000 with 38 degrees max compared to 36. There did not seem to be any benefit when I advanced it to 40 so I dropped it back to 38.

This is the reason why the 123 is a cool piece of equipment if you want to learn about the effects of ignition timing on your engine.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #26 of 56 (permalink) Old 08-01-2009, 08:23 PM
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I had an interesting experience with the 123 distributor. I was using the early 70's alfa curve in a car with a SPICA HP pump and head by Wes Ingram. The engine idled very well and pulled to 7000 RPM, but only for one day. After that, the green LED would light on the distributor, but it would not produce any dwell or any spark. After removing it, a small amount of what appeared to be graphite grease was smeared across the top plate below the rotor. Classic alfa graciously offered to replace the part. Was this a fluke or was it related to high RPM?
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post #27 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 12:31 AM
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Range of 500 to 7000 RPM

ok so the 123 ignition site says the dizzy has a range of 500 to 7000 RPM and the last post on this thread seemed to point out that if you do rev the car past the 7000 RPM that there is a good chance the Dizzy will die.

Is this correct or can someone please point out another reason why there might be a "range" for this distributor.

Is this suitable for a race car where revs are constantly above 6000 and engine can be reved to 7500?
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post #28 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 03:49 AM
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Mine has occasionally (accidentally) been revved to 7500 (engine rpm) with no problems. It feels like it will go higher. I cannot think of a reason why an electrical component would fail at higher rpm. After all, the dizzy rotates at half engine speed why should such relatively modest rpm be a problem?

The 123 distributor also interfaces well with an MSD ignition box, despite the factory statement that it won't work.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #29 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 01:11 AM
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Let's say I have selected curve 1 and the timing strobe light is at "F" mark(~ 5 Degree) when idling at 1000rpm. Does that mean that I have a static advance of -5degree?

Sorry for asking this question.... my problem is that my pulley does not have the "M" marking.
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post #30 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 03:46 AM
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Static advance, as it's name implies, is with the engine stationary - zero rpm.

Try the following:
Set the pointer to "P" with the motor at TDC on #1 cylinder.
Measure the outer diameter of the engine pully.
Calculate the distance on the circumference of the pulley for 1 degree of crankshaft rotation
=D*pi/360
Calculate the distance for the static advance that you require.
Measure that distance from "P" and mark the pulley.
Follow the 123ignition instructions to make the green light just come on with the pointer at your new mark.

You can also calculate the distance for your 'M" position and mark the pulley. Use your strobe to verify the max adavance is at your new 'M" mark.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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