04-28-2008, 07:01 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 482
|
|
 Quote:
|
That's why you'll see guys with early Megasquirt that still have their AFM installed with flapper locked in full open (or fuel pump doesn't get energized & car won't start).
|
I have an earlier car with an inertial switch. When I put in my Motronic engine, I left the inertial switch in place to control the pump. I still love to hear the pump start when I turn the key to the first position.
About the Split Second - I'm getting close to ordering what we have discussed. My open loop Motronic engine (TS) has finally destroyed my cat and it appears most of the material has come loose and has blown away. (First it felt clogged, then it rattled, now it doesn't rattle and it revs nicely.) I found a muffler shop that will just put a pipe inside it and weld it on, so I'll have a visual cat and still have an open loop system. I will have him fix that up soon and then I will order the system to play with. I have found the 4.6L Ford engined MAF, so I have all the parts. I will get back to this thread as soon as I've done anything. I'll post a picture of the system when it arrives, and document what I've done. I'll save my files to share if it a good running file too.
__________________
Stefano
Concord, CA
iachella [at] gmail [dot] com
|
05-09-2008, 07:18 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 482
|
|
|
Connector Question
One last item I haven't figured out. How should one hook up to the AFM connector from the existing harness? The MAF connector is available from Split Second for $50, or cut one off a car in a junk yard (I did yesterday) for $2. But the old connector for the AFM should remain intact. I don't want to cut the connector off and splice the wires. I'd like this to be reversible instantly. Any way to find a reverse connector for the Bosch AFM connector?
Thanks
__________________
Stefano
Concord, CA
iachella [at] gmail [dot] com
|
05-13-2008, 06:03 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29
|
|
|
No, you can not find male 5pin Junior Timer connector.
The best is to install a switch between AFM and ECU.
Last edited by alpa; 05-29-2008 at 09:27 AM.
|
05-13-2008, 11:29 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milpitas CA
Posts: 1,484
|
|
|
if you have the shell. you can get new pins for the Jr timer and crimp them on so you do not have a splice.
__________________
1987 black Milano Verde
1972 White spider 2000 Veloce
|
05-22-2008, 09:23 AM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Granolaville, Washington
Posts: 3,154
|
|
|
The split-second guys asked me to measure the voltage on my stock 164 LS AFM again, so yesterday we back-probed the one pin on the connector (with the ignition on), that has a varying voltage when the flap moves.
What we got was around 261 milli-volts with the flap shut (I guess zero then for that matter) and about 4.65 volts with it wide-open! Does that sound correct? Is that"the same as 5 volts then" as far as Split Second is concerned? So, now I just have to get the -004 I guess (one can just run an ignition-source to the fuel-relay to trigger the pump...)
My heads will be back soon, so I am moving forward with this. I will likely first install the heads and run the car again - make sure that everything is good and then do the MAF/MAS conversion.
I was also considering converting to one of these for the 3.45 litre... It's a 75mm ITB from ROUSH that Brad is using in his new 3.0 litre Milano (documented in the Milano/75 forum next door...)
__________________
Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 2.0 TS '73 GTV; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; '06 Scion XB - Runs! 
Last edited by junglejustice; 05-29-2008 at 05:29 AM.
|
05-25-2008, 10:27 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 99
|
|
|
Just read the complete articles on the AFM replacement thing...
I'm building a 3.0 v6 with an Eaton M62. the engine is from a 164 so it has the Motronic management with the flapperdoor-box. The guy from Squadra told me the flapperdoor is not a very good thing for me. It will only measure to a certain amount of air and above that amount it won't be measured so there will be no more fuel injected also.
The VW VR6 engine uses another type of Motronic with a hot-wire sensor. What i need to know now is if i can use the VR6 wiring harness and ECU and MAF sensor on the Alfa v6...
The only problem i can think of is the position of the TDC sensor ( the -2 teeth from the 60-2 wheel) if this is on a different spot the ECU wouldn't know when piston nr1 is at TDC. the harness can be made to fit and all the other sensors are the same. The older types of vr6 also use a distributor so that's easy.
These vr6 parts are cheap to get and i already need a new chip for the Eaton.
|
05-28-2008, 01:09 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29
|
|
|
In the past VAG was using Motronic with a radically different ECU design, it was 68HCxx based.
The 3L AFM would work up to 240HP I think. Injectors are 38HP @3bars.
You'd better use an aftermarket ECU, you'll have to manage the Eaton bypass, not sure it will be easy with Motronic without modifying the CPU code.
|
05-28-2008, 04:54 PM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 704
|
|
These last two posts don't have anything at all to do with the Split Second MAF conversion. Sorry gentlemen, why not open a new post with those questions. In fact, the majority of these posts are about using the Split Second programmable Air/fuel Ratio Calibrator (PSC-004) with a non-Split Second MAF - not really sure why, the MAF 3.0 is only $235.00, the 3.5 is $250.00.
Quote:
|
The guy from Squadra told me the flapperdoor is not a very good thing for me. It will only measure to a certain amount of air and above that amount it won't be measured so there will be no more fuel injected also.
|
Greg Gordon has done SC installs using the stock L-Jet (with uprated injectors of course), so there shouldn't be any reason the Motronic couldn't be used. The beauty of the Split Second products is that you can keep your existing ECU, sensors, and wiring. Install the appropriate PSC unit and MAF kit from Split Second and maybe we can start reading about the success of your M62 supercharged 164 engine in 60 days, instead of reading about your floundering about with the VR6 heart surgery 60 months from now!
Last edited by ToonRboy; 05-29-2008 at 09:22 AM.
|
05-29-2008, 05:22 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Granolaville, Washington
Posts: 3,154
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToonRboy
These last two posts don't have anything at all to do with the Split Second MAF conversion. Sorry gentlemen, why not open a new post with those questions. In fact, the majority of these posts are about using the Split Second programmable Air/fuel Ratio Calibrator (PSC-004) with a non-Split Second MAF - not really sure why, the MAF 3.0 is only $235.00, the 3.5 is $250.00.
That's not entirely correct. You forget that the ECU takes inputs from the O2 sensor and TPS as well. Injector size is your limitation.
Greg Gordon has done SC installs using the stock AFM (with uprated injectors of course), so there shouldn't be any reason the Motronic couldn't be used. The beauty of the Split Second products is that you can keep your existing ECU, sensors, and wiring. Install the appropriate PSC unit and MAF kit from Split Second and maybe we can start reading about the success of your M62 supercharged 164 engine in 60 days, instead of reading about your floundering about with the VR6 heart surgery 60 months from now!
|
As for these two boyz - leave 'em be - the more the merrier. This conversation could still very well turn in the direction of after-market fueling! I myself am also using the UniChip on this particular car and there is bound to be at least one more guy here who ends up with a GoTech or another fully-programmable, stand-alone engine management system as an alternative to all of this effort!
I would agree with you and the last poster that trying to make the VR6 management system work is an exercise in futility, when you can purchase a GoTech or other turn-key engine management system for 700 to 900 dollars, which completely eliminates the flapper-crapper MAF altogether, as well as the need for ANY MAS sensor of any kind and ends the need for the Split Second setup with it as well!
__________________
Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 2.0 TS '73 GTV; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
Last edited by junglejustice; 05-29-2008 at 05:25 AM.
|
05-29-2008, 09:20 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 704
|
|
|
OK, no problem JJ. Here's what I see the best part of the Split Second system (No, I am not a re-seller). It retains the L-Jet or Motronic ECU! Which means you don't have to spend countle$$ hours programing your basic maps and transitions. They're already there!
All one has to do is tweak to compensate for go-fast mods (compression, cams, big-bore, etc). So, effectively an easier system for the DIY tuner who doesn't want to spend hundreds if not thousands on top on their aftermarket programmable EFI - just to get it to start when cold, run well in all weather conditions, and pass emissions (maybe).
In terms of saving a couple hundred dollars on a MAF that you know will work out of the box with the PSC? Penny wise, dollar foolish. -I didn't take you to be the shy one when it comes to dropping some money on a proven product.
|
05-29-2008, 09:29 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 99
|
|
|
vr6 management would cost me 50 Euros, ecu and sensor included...
Squadra can make me the chip. Gotech is a nice system but nobody here (in Holland) can give me a quote on how much it would cost to tune the system. In fact there are a few respected tuners here who refuse to work with things they don't know. All included the programmable management would probably set me back 2000 $.
El cheapo solution to eliminate the flapperdoor was this idea. the vr6 management is more then capable of handling the parameters for my engine, no limitation by the flapperdoor.
@ToonRboy,
injectors are from Audi RS4, 2.7TT v6. TPS and O2 sensor don't give the ecu info about the amount of air going into the engine. The flapperdoor registers how far the door opens when a certain amount of air flows by, the more air goes by the more the door will open. when the door is fully opened it cannot measure the airflow anymore simply because the door cannot open any further. your ecu needs to know air mass to calculate the amount of injected fuel, how will it calculate without the correct figures?
Greg Gordons supercharged cars are Jetronic by the way. He uses a boost enrichment device of some kind.
|
05-29-2008, 09:59 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,137
|
|
|
Since I have been mentioned I will chime in with a couple supercharging points. Some of this does relate to the Split Second conversion, so it's semi on topic.
First, the Eaton bypass valve doesn't require any special "management" from an ECU. It simply connects to the plenum via a vacuum line and works automatically.
L-Jet and Motronic are both usable for supercharging, although they both have some problems.
The split second device as well as other devices of this type won't work with a Roots supercharger when the throttle is downstream of the blower (as in the stock location). According to a representative from Split Second, it can't handle the reversion caused by the supercharger shutting off. That makes perfect sense to me and I am sure he is right.
A supercharged 2.5 can work with stock injectors up to about 5psi. A 3.0 needs bigger injectors at about 3psi, which of course means a supercharged 3.0 needs bigger injectors in almost any supercharged application.
If set up correctly L-Jet works pretty darn well with a blower, but a quality aftermaket system is much better.
I did use a boost enrichment device with L-Jet and bigger injectors to handle 10psi. It worked very well. That device has been successful on some supercharged L-Jet Triumphs as well.
I do suggest using Gotech, SDS or something else equally good. My book should be out by convention time and it explains everything you need to do to L-Jet or Motronic for supercharging, including how to make the black box fuel enrichment device. I will be giving a supercharging seminar at the convention and I can cover these issues.
Greg Gordon,
hiperformancestore.com
|
05-29-2008, 10:34 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 704
|
|
Today 11:59 AM, Greg Gordon wrote:
Quote:
|
The split second device as well as other devices of this type won't work with a Roots supercharger when the throttle is downstream of the blower (as in the stock location). According to a representative from Split Second, it can't handle the reversion caused by the supercharger shutting off. That makes perfect sense to me and I am sure he is right.
|
}|
giuliettaevo, I hate to tell you this but once the L-Jet is in closed loop, it doesn't even care about the AFM inputs. Another thing, the flapper AFM was the best solution (in those days) to give you a decent idle and transition from idle - that's pretty much it. That flapper door is wide open long before your engine is at WOT my friend. Having said all that, I would pay heed to the wise respected tuners over there who refuse to work with things they don't know...
Last edited by ToonRboy; 05-29-2008 at 10:38 AM.
|
05-29-2008, 11:21 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,137
|
|
|
ToonRboy,
That's pretty good logic there, but it doesn't apply in this case. The reversion problem I am talking about occurs when the supercharger shuts off and the throttle is NOT closed. This happens every time you drive the car. Under those conditions you need an accurate reading from the AFM/MAF or whatever, and reversion will prevent you from getting it.
Greg
|
05-29-2008, 11:56 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Granolaville, Washington
Posts: 3,154
|
|
|
The topic is getting pretty random - and that's OK; we're all trying to solve the same problem here the way I see it (the most horsepower for the least amount of dollars and the lowest effort - delivered in the most efficient and cleanest possible way...) Heaven forbid it actually runs well and passes emissions at the end of it all!
Still, as far as the programmable argument; I have been part of the sale of about 50 of these things (about 20 with engines and maybe an additional 30 units as ad-on to existing track engines.) I have personally helped tune about 10 of them and have done about 5-6 installs myself. I have never seen a 700 dollar GoTech consume a 2000 dollar final bill installed and tuned!
For that matter - I would be extremely leery of any tuner who doesn't want to work with other systems! They are just trying to sell you their system of choice! It takes a few hours of your effort to install things properly and tuck the wires away and to make it all look | |
