TS & CA smog tests

[slyalfa]

did the bosh FI have a air pump?
I do not think it does? my 1987 Milano Verde has no air pump. but that is a v6
if the latter nord had no air pump it might be you just need a cat and go to the ref station. and tell them you got a newer nord. then they put the sticker on the car that says injected cat etc.
but there is the risk if they do not like it... you might give one a call and just chat you might be able to do this on the up and up.

[junglejustice]

Keep in mind that this comes out of a Bosch Motronic car (with a 60-2 setup as a side-not BTW) - it has to run cleaner than the older L-Jet cars or the carbi/Spica motor that came out of it...

[randyleepublic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slyalfa did the bosh FI have a air pump? I do not think it does? my 1987 Milano Verde has no air pump. but that is a v6 if the latter nord had no air pump it might be you just need a cat and go to the ref station. and tell them you got a newer nord. then they put the sticker on the car that says injected cat etc. but there is the risk if they do not like it... you might give one a call and just chat you might be able to do this on the up and up.

[iachella]

Randy is right again. If you go down the path of telling them it's a later Nord Bosch engine, they will check in detail what that later Nord Bosch engine looked like and what it had on it. The rules (which I've printed out and studied to see what is possible) say you must provide the engine number so they can verify what it is supposed to be equiped with. With an engine that never came to the US, you are running down a dead end path. My conclusion was if you open your mouth, you are done for.

If someone has acutally done this and found it wasn't as bad as it sounds, please let us know.

Currently I'm sourcing some air rail bungs to have my machinist fit the manifold for the air rail. I've found some inverted flare fittings from this company: http://www.smithfast.com/ifmain.htm. My machinist says it might be easier just to get a US rail or find both the male and female parts, like this website has, and he'll make the tubes up.

[101 Alfa Mike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iachella With an engine that never came to the US, you are running down a dead end path. My conclusion was if you open your mouth, you are done for.

[Pat Braden]

Let me state up front I know nothing about the twin-spark engine; however, in general principle and based on experience with the California smog system over the years of getting Alfas smogged and bringing cars/motorcycles in from out of state I concur on a couple of points:

• The last place you want to end up is with a CA smog referee; there are very few that are flexible and cooperative from the consumer end or standpoint. They feel their job is to keep as much non-standard equipment off the road as possible and work diligently to accomplish their mission.

• Referees hassle you with standard equipment that will not pass the test, so you can imagine the field day they have with recognized non-standard equipment.

The only times that we have been caught up in the referee system and been successful have only been because Pat spent his career in the automotive industry and was skillful at using the manufacturer industry publications and standards that he could cross-reference and take to the referee that differed, compromised, defeated, or in some way changed the color of the page or information that the referee was using. Do remember Pat had an advanced degree in English and research combined with his automotive experience and had been used to testify as an expert witness or SME in that regard. Referees are not people to be taken on by the "casual laymen" or "everyday mechanic;" at least, not in the scenario presented here. Both of the latter may be able to come up with the convincing argument, but it is all in the proof, ability to present it, and credibility. Think: going to court and representing yourself rather than hiring an attorney.

Imo, you are much better off finding a local mechanic or smogger that is willing to work with you and figure out how to do it. Many won't, you have to shop carefully, act dumb, and use some subterfuge to determine the cooperativeness of the interviewee without giving away your position. I agree that stating upfront that the engine was never imported, used, or approved in US cars is a dead end road.

Another possible alternative is to register it in another state, but California is one of the hardest states to bring a car into from another state also and you may end up right back where you started with the referee.

Many California Community College Automotive Departments act as referees, if you know someone in that capacity you might be able to get some information on how the system works and what they're looking for. Go interview a referee as some kind of career or job search project and find out what they do and how they do it.

Good Luck!

[Biba69]

Stefano, I'm still for leaving the TS 'stock', though installing a cat if you've not done so isn't a bad idea. I suggest you hit your local car scene/car shows which have cars newer than a '75. Most likely you'll find some very non original looking engine bays. Then start talking to the owners. I'd simply start out something like, "Man, what an incredible engine!" Maybe a bit more chit-chat then ask how he gets it smogged. Most of those who have a source are hesistent to give the name/place away since if it gets busted they're in the same boat as you. Your big selling point is it Will pass smog, but 'perhaps' not the visual inspection. Say you're installing an engine that wasn't ever imported into the US in your car. If he's a Honda guy for instance he might not be very impressed about a TS in an Alfetta GT. However, I'm aware that it is not at all unusual for Honda guys to do the same thing - import engines from Japan that were never sold in the US.

Worst scenario (which I can't ever imagine it happening) is the smog place gets busted over your car. I'd imagine the owner could most likely get by with,"Hey it passed the emissions tests with flying colors. I have no idea what equipment should or should not be on one of these cars." He'd essentially be using the argument: if it looks right, it must be right. This is one reason I don't like the idea of cutting the center support out of the hood - instant tip-off the engine's not original. Does your spark plug cover plate have Alfa Romeo on it? If asked, of course it's an aftermarket cam cover.

Like I've always said, its good to have friends in low places. Maybe the Rice Rocket guys will even let you hang out with them.

Biba

[randyleepublic]

Hi Stefano,
I got one of the stickers out of my Marin Sport Sedan partsmobile. Only in 2 pieces! One more big one to go. I also have a US Alfetta manifold with an air rail and maybe bungs that you could use. You want?

You going on the Berlina tour Sep. 16?

Regards,

[101 Alfa Mike]

Just thinking out loud here -

The average smog guy doesn't know one Alfa engine from another. He is just going to key in the vehicle vin and follow the instructions that come up on the screen. I wonder exactly what those instructions look like. Does he get a really detailed pic? Or just a vague sketch? Maybe a cooperative smog guy could do some screen prints for you?

Btw, I have a so-called Rice Rocket and run with those guys some. It is alway entertaining to smog the MR-2. Half the guys can't find the engine. And, its always entertaining to watch them pretend to check the timing. Turns out they are not allowed to remove the engine side covers -- which is a requirement for checking the timing.

[iachella]

And they always put the front wheels of my Alfetta on the dyno ....

[iachella]

Just to add some progress, here is my air injection on the TS manifod:

[Biba69]

Stefano, looks pretty pro. Did you have a broken #4 exhaust header pipe?

I still maintain there is no doubt a pretty large handful of smog test stations that are considerably less interested in what it looks like rather than if it passes the tests or not.

Just curious as to what radiator reservoir bottle you're using? Mine has a strap down the grooved center.

And where's the A/C pump? Personally I'd much rather have an A/C pump rather than a plain old air pump.

Biba

[Travis_k]

Technically any engine that was not sold in a production car in the US in a vehicle newer than 1967 (I believe that is the correct year) is illegal for use on public roads. Also, any engine swaps must be a newer engiine into an older vehicle (or both the same year). But, depending on where you get the smog test done they will not notice. I know 2 people that took engine swapped mk2 golfs in for smog tests and they passed with no problem. There are plenty of ways around it ( I see SR20DET swapped nissans everyday), but keep in mind a car like that has little value to most people if you ever want to sell it, and may not always be able to be registered when things change in the future. My personal preference is to keep things smog legal (or at least close enough to be easily returned to that state) in anything newer than 75, so I would not do something like a TS swap in a newer alfa.

[iachella]

Actually you can swap any US model engine into any US model car. The final configuration must comply to the smog requirements of the later model of either engine or car. I have gone over the regulations with a fine toothed comb on that part.

We all know that many people like to leave things the way they are, for whatever reason - originality, going against what the factory engineers did, or fear of getting caught. For those who can't leave things alone (like me), there are these discussions.

I think we are all aware of the legality of this swap. One person had been planning to see a referree and get the TS engine corectly registered. He has since abandoned that plan on the advice of some experts that he is consulting. We are all now convinced that wouldn't work.

I would say things are a little different to Alfa folks on value. If I were to ever sell (which I don't think I will), I would say up front that it's got a TS. I think that would elevate the value of an Alfetta. A few may disagree, but most people that know the limitations of the US 4 cylinder Alfettas will agree that a TS makes a way better Alfetta. The buyer would know what they would need to do in order to get it registered in his name. I wouldn't give any illusions that they should go just anywhere to get it smogged, and would share any tips I had. This is a specialty car now and if someone didn't know what a twin spark was, they probably wouldn't respond to the ad. If he were trying to offer me Alfetta cash for it I would tell him to go find a plain Alfetta in as good a shape as mine is.

[Travis_k]

I agree it can be done, it will never pass a regular smog test though, so whether or not to do it pretty much depends on if you can get it registered without having to pass or not.