TwinSpark MegaSquirt conversion - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #31 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 03:38 PM Thread Starter
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I know what you mean - I'm looking forward to getting the MS moving so I can start to dial it in. The biggest issue is probably that I'm letting the Marelli curve / detonation etc skew my thoughts on what I need - hope to get the EDIS MS ignition running this weekend and start to dial it in like you've been able to.

It's always interesting how you start to delve into something and it quickly gets ferociously complicated, and then you come out the other side and often simplify it again for the best result. The BB is brilliant for muddying the waters, but you end up with a bell curve of understanding (and often some rock solid repeatable results) which are the little nuggets you hope for

I did notice today - having the VVT on at light loads in the idle -> 2500 mark seemed to make the throttle response very twitchy - ie, you're in traffic in 2nd gear barely moving, you just want to add a little bit of throttle - and it surges around etc. Also makes it hard to maintain a constant slow speed in same situation, have to hold your foot very rigid to prevent little surges. With the VVT disengaged the car becomes instantly more tractable. Could well just be related to how much I've retarded the Marelli - so really just a data point until the EDIS is running. Lots of unknown known unknowns

Cheers,

Scott Murray
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post #32 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 05:53 PM
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Guys - FYI I've updated my description of the factory VVT control in this post - there was a couple of mistakes and bits missing regarding part throttle hysteresis, but the core behaviour is still pretty much as I initially described.
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post #33 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
My guess is that is way too little advance. I brought up the point in that thread a while back.
Looking at the various part-throttle ignition tables, the low-mid load advance is an average of 10-15* higher than the WOT tables with a max of around 28* - but at high loads it's much closer, i.e. figures around 10-15* at 1600 and 20* at 6000.
These figures line up with what I've read about the TS engine needing a maximum advance of only around 30* which is lower than an "average" engine.
And without a knock sensor, timing for high loads would have to be on the conservative side.

There might be something else coming into play that adds/offsets the advance, but as far as I can tell these figures should represent real-world degrees BTDC...
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post #34 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 03:36 AM Thread Starter
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So - the EDIS system is the first cab off the rank. I replaced the twinspark crank pulley with a std unit to get the car running, and had a bit of a look-see at the EDIS trigger wheel vs the Motronic.

Excellent news ! they're both completely different A friend dug out an old 3 groove pulley that had been turned down to one groove, and we thought a small land / shoulder could be turned for the EDIS trigger wheel to press onto, and then a stronger weld (braze probably as the pulleys are cast) put in place to lock it there.

You can see the single groove pulley and EDIS trigger mocked up below next to the TS pulley.
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post #35 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 03:45 AM Thread Starter
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Then I thought, why not make life easier, and just press the motronic toothed ring off the TS pulley, turn down the land to suit, and press the EDIS wheel back on. Then part the outermost groove off to leave one for the waterpump / alternator - and the other for AC (one day...) fairly quick to do, and I can press the EDIS ring off / on again if I really muck up the advanced BTDC position of the marker gap.

You can see the EDIS ring against the Motronic below.

I have to take the radiator out for a recore in the next day or so, so will mod the pulley and adapt the EDIS VR sensor mouting to suit the TS timing cover mount - and swap it all over.

Once that's in - I can test run the two EDIS4 modules running the full 8 plugs (it will run at 10deg BTDC by default without in put from an ECU)

Onwards !
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post #36 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 04:03 AM Thread Starter
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For your amusement, here's the Jaycar frequency switch and wideband O2 wiring at the moment. I've run a heavy fused positive feed in from the primary feed on the fusebox in the engine bay, and broken that out into a small 8 slot blade fuse unit - as I wanted individually fused supplies for the ECU, O2 sensor, Fuel Pump, VVT, Cig lighter charger etc etc..

I think you'll agree - it looks period correct.
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post #37 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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Found an excellent thread by here by Richard (GTV67) who used the MS MegaJolt controller with an EDIS4 to run his std Nord.

Turns out the EDIS needs the VR sensor on the opposite side of the timing cover to the Motronic (motronic must time off the end of the previous TDC event marker, rather than just before the current one - if that makes sense)

Some really great info there that will make life much easier. The MegaJolt, if you haven't heard about it - is a reduced footprint controller that specialises in ignition (usually via EDIS) - rather than injection and everything else...

Cheers,

Scott Murray
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post #38 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-26-2012, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aikendrum105 View Post
opposite side of the timing cover to the Motronic
This was, of course, a silly thing to say - I just need to offset the timing ring tooth gap in the right position when I press it on to match the sensor location in the stock area. Will be working on this tonight.

Cheers,

Scott Murray
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post #39 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-26-2012, 08:52 PM
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Scott,

It may be worth mentioning that you can completely eliminate the EDIS box by simply using a Bosch 0 227 100 211 ignition module. This can be used to drive the two 4cyl coil packs directly through the megasquirt. If you go this route you do not need to replace your trigger wheel for a 36-1. The megasquirt is happy with the 60-2 wheel that the motronic system used and you could also stick with the factory vr sensor.

Also you may not have stumbled across this but there are limitations to the rev limit strategy that you can use when using and EDIS box. I do not recal the exact details but i know there are some limitations to using spark retard/cut rev limiting with an EDIS box.

Also as far as VVT control strategy the megasquirt can allow you to use a number of inputs together to control the solenoid so it may be worth looking at using a minimum RPM combined with a TPS and Map threshold to trigger things. If you take this approach you do not need to use table switching. That was the route I used when I had vvt on my megasquirt'd spider.

If you have any questions about megasquirt stuff drop me a line. I will be offshore for the next week or so but I may have some access to be board still.

-1986 Spider Veloce (Megasquirt & soon to be Turbo)
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post #40 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-26-2012, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
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That is *very* important info - thanks for letting me know !

I've had a bit of a read up on it per your advice and you're right - fiddly to get spark-cut via the edis. it looks like there's a couple of options.

* the EDIS4 units apparently have a built in rev-limit of ~8500. A little high for my TS anyway the cars they are fitted to as oem seem to be setup for fuel cut rather than spark cut limitation.

* You can offset the trigger wheel a further 10 deg. so the EDIS default advance is TDC (0 deg) - giving a soft-cut of sorts (and adjust all your maps to add the extra 10deg back in to account for it. But some say may lead to other detonation issues at redline you really don't want.

* Wire up an additional circuit to provide a decent soft and hard cut by isolating the EDIS module -> coil triggers - extra work I might as well put into driving the coils from the MS

* Just Lose the EDIS module completely and replace with the Bosch 211 module instead as it can be used to cut spark etc. (but doesn't have the redundancy of the EDIS)

* Just lose the EDIS module completely, integrate the BIP373 drivers into the MS2 unit and fire the coils from the MS - giving you all the MSnExtra options for spark cut. (which is what Madk4Speed recommended from the get-go)


I'm leaning back towards just integrating the BIP373 drivers into the MS2 I think... A little more pondering and reading to do tonight.

Scott Murray
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post #41 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-27-2012, 03:48 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGeorgi View Post
Also as far as VVT control strategy the megasquirt can allow you to use a number of inputs together to control the solenoid so it may be worth looking at using a minimum RPM combined with a TPS and Map threshold to trigger things.
I think it's more that *when* the VVT triggers, you need to shift to a different spark and possibly fuelling map, rather than a map to trigger the VVT - if that makes sense. As there are interpolation issues when trying to use create single spark and fuelling maps with large jumps at the areas the VVT kicks in.

The idea is to replicate in part how the motronic does it - so you can disengage the VVT when cruising / engine braking etc.... And then move forward from there to optimise it for performance rather than emissions if there's a gain to be had there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGeorgi View Post
If you have any questions about megasquirt stuff drop me a line....
I really appreciate that mate - many thanks!

Cheers,

Scott Murray
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post #42 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-27-2012, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aikendrum105 View Post
I think you'll agree - it looks period correct.
Oh yea. As well as neat and tidy!


Jay Mackro
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post #43 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-27-2012, 05:39 PM
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I run an MS3 on a V3.0 main board. I am using a Bosch 211 module to drive my wasted spark coil pack on my spider (only using 2 of 4 channels).

ITBs and a Megasquirt

The 211 is a very nice simple solution. The other benefit to using an external ignition module and a reason many OEMs do it this way is you keep the high noise elements outside of the ecu. By the way the 211 modules can be had on ebay for about 40 dollars. They were commonly used on 2001-up VW and Audi applications.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aikendrum105 View Post
* Just Lose the EDIS module completely and replace with the Bosch 211 module instead as it can be used to cut spark etc. (but doesn't have the redundancy of the EDIS)

* Just lose the EDIS module completely, integrate the BIP373 drivers into the MS2 unit and fire the coils from the MS - giving you all the MSnExtra options for spark cut. (which is what Madk4Speed recommended from the get-go)


I'm leaning back towards just integrating the BIP373 drivers into the MS2 I think... A little more pondering and reading to do tonight.

-1986 Spider Veloce (Megasquirt & soon to be Turbo)
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Last edited by AGeorgi; 02-27-2012 at 05:41 PM.
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post #44 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-27-2012, 08:33 PM Thread Starter
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The more I read about the 211 the more I like it - keeping the noise out of the ECU is a very good idea too - my original MS had the flyback transistors for the injectors mounted with the ECU inside an old L-Jet box - and I had to shield between them to stop oddness at high revs.

They're insanely priced to source a new one ($500 - $800) - There's a breakers yard nearby I might wander past on sat morning and see if I can nab a couple of them cheap - Otherwise I'll hit up some of the US ebay sellers which are reasonably priced.

Another option is to just buy the BIP373 transistors from DIYAuto ($8 ea) and pot them up on a heatsink. But the Bosch unit is sealed / robust / ready to go and quite compact - Great solution.

Cheers,

Scott Murray
'04 156 JTS Sportwagon -- brilliant car for the daily, kids taxi and parts hauling

in officina -
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post #45 of 99 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aikendrum105 View Post
So - the EDIS system is the first cab off the rank. I replaced the twinspark crank pulley with a std unit to get the car running, and had a bit of a look-see at the EDIS trigger wheel vs the Motronic.

Excellent news ! they're both completely different A friend dug out an old 3 groove pulley that had been turned down to one groove, and we thought a small land / shoulder could be turned for the EDIS trigger wheel to press onto, and then a stronger weld (braze probably as the pulleys are cast) put in place to lock it there.

You can see the single groove pulley and EDIS trigger mocked up below next to the TS pulley.
Why don't you make your life simpler? Keep the stock pulley and stock VR sensor. Use 4 BIP373 Bosch ignitions transtistors and don't waste your time with EDIS. Just a friendly advice. Soon I will post some photos.

Last edited by madk4speed; 02-28-2012 at 11:14 PM.
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