What the stock 75 TS Motronic can and cannot do. - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #31 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-12-2012, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
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festy, I'll be curious as to what you come up with.

I'm getting crappy gas mileage out of my nord with DCOE's, 10:1 pistons, and (I think) the factory 10548032 cam.

Do people get poor gas mileage out of the remapped chip/chips simply because of how the chip has been remapped...or because owners then put their foot into it more and more often?

Oh yes, does one remove and then send their TS chip to be remapped, or does one receive the remapped chip and then send the original one in as a 'core'?

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post #32 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-12-2012, 06:55 PM
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dam I did not know they were in demand I just tossed last month when cleaning about 100lbs of 256/512/1024Mbit DIP UV eproms
I think I have tossed most if not all of my UV erasers too. and most of the programers.
I filed a 4 spot drive way all the way up and a big truck came and took everything for free. (they want the scrap metal) I only kept some of the gold chips. but was glad to get some space back.

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post #33 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-12-2012, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biba69 View Post

Oh yes, does one remove and then send their TS chip to be remapped, or does one receive the remapped chip and then send the original one in as a 'core'?
It's hypothetical at the moment, but the cost of posting the 'core' back would be more than the chip is worth. Either a new flash chip and adapter board would be used in it's place, or for under $100 you could set yourself up with the hardware and software to do your own tuning.
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post #34 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-12-2012, 08:37 PM
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dam I did not know they were in demand I just tossed last month when cleaning about 100lbs of 256/512/1024Mbit DIP UV eproms
I think I have tossed most if not all of my UV erasers too. and most of the programers.
I filed a 4 spot drive way all the way up and a big truck came and took everything for free. (they want the scrap metal) I only kept some of the gold chips. but was glad to get some space back.
You did WHAT?? Here we are scrounging for these things and I read this! Oh well, that's life, ain't it?
Biba, I suppose -as you correctly surmise- people installing upgraded chips are surely inclined to 'step on it' as that's what they were looking for in the first place. A friend here who installed just such a chip from Squadra said his consumption went up, but when I rode in his car, I saw why!
If anything, mileage should improve as they usually increase ignition advance, which is always very conservative in factory maps.
Btw, chips are bought outright, no returns, core refunds or such.
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post #35 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-12-2012, 08:54 PM
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You did WHAT?? Here we are scrounging for these things and I read this!:
If you're looking for 28 pin EPROMs, I'll happilly send you some.
I pull them out and replace with 1Mbit flash chips (or non-volatile RAM) on the ECUs I play with - which then lets you switch between 'tunes' with the flick of a switch. The same could be done for the TS ECU as well, though.

I've mapped out a few more tables now, and found what appears to be a battery bias table for injector pulse width, and a couple of coolant/air temp bias tables too.
And also what looks like the ignition advance tables for the two fuel maps (98RON and standard?)
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post #36 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-12-2012, 09:32 PM
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Some guys here use two 28-pin DIL eproms piggyback and switch maps with pin #1 -if I remember right- haven't done this particular thing in years.
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post #37 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 04:47 AM
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I have a feeling this is the main spark advance table (there should be a second for the alternate fuel map but I haven't looked for it yet) - I'm not sure what the engine load numbers equate to in real figures, but the cell values *should* represent degrees of advance (negative numbers would show retard).

Does it look right? The base advance is about 10 deg, and max is 29, but there's a lot of timing pulled at higher loads low in the rev range?
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post #38 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 08:18 AM
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Good job! Hmmm, tell you what: You keep going the way you do and when you're done, you put together a Motronic-specific mapping kit (with idiot-proof instructions...) and sell it to us!
That will make many of us happy, sending us back in our caves with new toys for a good while!
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post #39 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 11:50 AM
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Jim I have not use a UV ROM for over 10 years or more so at some point I just need to clean things up..
but every time I toss something it seems like some one needs it a few weeks later....
if I come across some stragglers I will collect them up and send them to you.

That spark map look not to bad . The low advance for smog at idle.
I wonder if the peak is real. the ECU should do smoothing between the cells and the peak might be flat do to the algorithm in the ECU. you need to find what the algorithm is used and use the same algorithm for plotting if you want to see the real story
It is a very simple curve with a small dent at 90 (Kpa?) 2500RPM looks right that is were you might get a lot of det. kinda surprised to see it come up any at 120
but that might be due to the extra fuel at WOT cooling the charge and allowing for a tad more advance.

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post #40 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting in that I was just wondering if 10.5:1 TS pistons, with the stock chip, would mean the ignition timing would alway be retarded.

Next question is would it be possible to predict - up to a point - how to compensate for relatively small modifications such as the additional .5 compression on a modified chip? Meaning stock cams, etc.? Or is the only way to really know is with the car on a chassis dyno?

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post #41 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Biba69 View Post
Next question is would it be possible to predict - up to a point - how to compensate for relatively small modifications such as the additional .5 compression on a modified chip? Meaning stock cams, etc.? Or is the only way to really know is with the car on a chassis dyno?
Most/all factory ECU tuning is pretty conservative. As long as you are using an appropriate octane fuel, 0.5 extra compression wouldn't require any ignition map changes. There would be more requirements for ignition map changes if you played with the settings of the variable valve timing.

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post #42 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 05:56 PM
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Speaking of VVT (and if you'll forgive my ignorance), how does it work?
From the few threads I've read on this forum this morning I get the impression it's load based, and either on or off - i.e. it doesn't add varying degrees of advance, it's all or nothing.
Is that the general consensus?

The reason I ask is that I've found what looks to me like the VVT actuator map - exept the "turn on" is staggered across a few engine load cells.
This could be to smooth the progression (i.e. add some hysteresis) - or it could be to gradually bring the cam advance in, rather than a savage hit?

Then again, I could be wrong as to what the map is for, but it's so smooth up the rev progression that it really does look like an ancilliary control map.

(vertical axis is formatted here as VVT actuator %)
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post #43 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 06:24 PM
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Jim has already said that it is On or Off rather than having any sort of progressive characteristics. I think that is accurate. If you look at continuously variable cam timing engines (just look at a BA onwards Falcon 6 for us Aussies) you will see sensors to detect camshaft position and the camshafts themselves will have trigger edges on them in the same way a crank angle sensor would have. This would give the ECU closed loop control (ie feed back) to make sure the camshafts are where they are suppose to be at any given time.
The solenoid valve(s) would also be either open or closed to control the oil flow in a switched, single step system and there would be pulse width modulation of the solenoid valve in continuous VVT systems.

You have brought up an interesting point about the VVT being load switched. With an air flow meter equipped engine management system, you can't get big AFM signals (signals that come from large air flow rates) without highish engine speeds. It's easy to get high load signals from a MAP sensor or TPS based load sensing, but with AFM load sensing, it can't be done so easily. So triggering the VVT based only on the AFM's signal could be the way the Motronic 4.1 did it.
Alternatively, there is also an RPM setting inside the code and some sort of data based comparator is used.

BTW, awesome work so far digging through this stuff and sharing it with the (Alfa) world

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post #44 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 06:40 PM
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Maybe the table value is added to another parameter to determine whether to activate vvt?
So the mid-range values might turn it on depending on another condition, and the 100% cells garantee it's on in those areas?
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post #45 of 815 (permalink) Old 01-13-2012, 09:00 PM
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Maybe the table value is added to another parameter to determine whether to activate vvt?
So the mid-range values might turn it on depending on another condition, and the 100% cells garantee it's on in those areas?
It sounds like you are getting to the point where you need to have every thing set up on a bench. With some means to simulate engine speed (either some sort of frequency generator that replicates the behavior of the crank angle sensors output and signal shape) or a 60-2 tone wheel attached to a variable speed drive and Bosch sensor.
Then it's an emulator in the original ECU, replace the analogue inputs (AFM, inlet air temp. and coolant temp.) with easy to adjust potentiometers. Replace any PWM or switched outputs with current limited LEDs. Then you can put a duty cycle equipped multimeter on the outputs and see what effect changing that part of the code has while simulating 'X revs' and 'Y load'.
This would help you to make absolutely sure that you are looking at things like the injector map(s), and the (probably need an oscilloscope for this one) ignition map(s).

Another thing which will be in the code is the ECU's calibration table for the analogue inputs. Nissan had dedicated calibration codes for their AFM tables and they were different for different AFM's.
The trouble is, if you start adjusting it, it would effect the out behavior of the injectors in the same way a lot of interceptor tuning devices change the main load sensor's signal.
So it may be easy to misinterpret the AFM calibration table as the main injector map. You modify this map and the injector duty cycle changes (much easier to see that than see innition timing changes when stuff is simulated on a bench).
The big problem, if that happens, is that while you may be able to achieve the desired air fuel ratios when tuning, the ignition timing would be going all over the place as a result. That is, the ignition map would be accessing area's that the tuner isn't intending it to access. So while you think you are pulling fuel out to correct an overly rich mixture at 1 rev/load point, you would also be causing the ECU to access a lower load ignition timing point which is typically more advanced. That extra ignition advance MAY cause engine knock or push the engine past its best ignition angle and loose a bit of torque as a result. The tuner may interpret that as a fuel deficiency.
"We leaned it out from a (typically) rich condition and it lost torque. So the engine needs to run rich." (based on readings from an AFR meter and the dyno).
But because they (the tuner) are effecting 2 things at once (injector open times and ignition timing) they could, and probably are, barking up the wrong tree about the requirements of the engine.

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