V6 Indiuction - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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Old 11-05-2010, 08:34 AM
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Richard Jemison
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V6 Indiuction

Now if Brad will only build these for us!
Got these from one of my customers this AM. See Email below:

Quote:
Hi richard, It's been awhile since we last talked and I thought you
might get a kick out of this. First of all I chased down my glitch at
6200 rpm, long story but after talking w/motec I figured out some
issues with crank trigger placement and timming also I change the hall
sensor to a Bosch mag that was designed for a more narrow tooth wheel
like the electromotive I have. No more hickup!
So more tunning and I was seeing #4&3 plugs very rich and 2&6 white
lean. More time checking everything out and more time w/motec,
Swiching wires ,coils and injectors around and motec said to look at
the plenum. I did and after many calculations this is what I came up
with,shaped out of a block foam and layed up in glass. End results all
plugs are burning dead even and it has better flow but no dyno yet.
See what think. Thanks Brad
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:01 AM
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Say, that is pretty sharp isn't it. The top cover is gorgeous.
I wonder if the stacks available at place like TWM would have saved a bit of work though.
(well, if the correct size was actually 'off the shelf' available it'd be a toss up between time and tedium vs $ at that point I suppose)

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:37 PM
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I feel that there need to be some expanded history/photos/details here so that I and fellow lurkers can suffer additional pain of envy.
My compliments, BTW.
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:45 PM
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Very nice! It looks like it has a nice increase in volume as well as to reduce any potential flow biasing of the original plenum chamber design. Generous bellmouths are nice, but I thought they may be a bit to big for the inlet runners

Any way, there is much to be said for quality fibreglass work.

It also looks a lot like the plenum chamber design used on some of the Aussie Buick V6 engines used in our Holden Commodores from years ago.
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Old 11-17-2010, 10:07 PM
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Thanks Richard and thanks for the kind feedback. Allot of math went into the design,and trying to hit a target peak torque for the cams Richard has made for me. The intake runners are stock but ported out to 37+mm, I would have liked to have something in the 44mm range and thats what I made the stacks for but tappered them down to 37mm for now.I still need to test at the dyno but I like the results so far,pulls good and breaths well.
Brad
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Old 11-29-2010, 05:16 PM
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Excelled work there bud! (Brad came by yesterday and I must say that I am impressed with the sorting on the car.)

He went to great lengths to fine-tune everything from the relationship of the crank TDC pointer to the pulley and pulley timing markings, to fine-tuning the exact positioning of his cam-triggers and crank-triggers that drive the MoTec, to the shape of the 60 - 2 trigger-wheel and type of crank-angle sensor, to the sizing of the intake stacks and plenum volume...

Very cool! The car runs great and actually pulls strong all of the way through the 6700-6800 rpm mark to 7K! While the cams breathe real well up top, they are a bit of a compromise in torque down low (although it doesn't feel like it because of the added compression, eliminating the stock Bosch L-Jet and restrictive flapper-crapper MAF, open exhaust and other refinements).

Some of that may come back with more fuel / timing fine-tuning low down in the MoTec maps. The straight cam swap would otherwise have killed the car down low, but the other refinements brought it back down low and the pull up top is sweeeet! The dyno says that he is now right on top of my street 24v 3.0 with the GTA Stage I intake cams and GoTech in horsepower and torque!

Nicely done Brad!
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:43 PM
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More than the 24V??? Wow!
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:50 PM
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Richard Jemison
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More than 24V

Yes, and without all the complexity and cost involved.

From stock components we get 275-300 HP. Brads intake is a nice addition but sectioned and increased capacity plenums work quite nicely. Just requires correct head work and cams and any of the tunable FI systems will do the job. I prefer Megasquirt as it will work with distributor rather than wheel. Again simplicity rather than more "CHANGE"!
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Last edited by Alfar7; 11-30-2010 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:24 PM
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Let me know if/when you are ready to sell there, I will buy one.

Regards, Andrew.
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
Yes, and without all the complexity and cost involved.

From stock components we get 275-300 HP. Brads intake is a nice addition but sectioned and increased capacity plenums work quite nicely. Just requires correct head work and cams and any of the tunable FI systems will do the job. I prefer Megasquirt as it will work with distributor rather than wheel. Again simplicity rather than more "CHANGE"!
Nothing wrong with change, just as long as it's value for money .
I'm (very) slowly going through the motions of adapting a Nissan engine management system (used in a common '80's Aussie car) to my 75 to replace the Motronic system.
Why? Manufacturer quality engine management system that is easy to reprogram. Just utilize all of the original Nissan type sensors, especially the distributor/crank angle sensor, some of which are similar/same as the original Bosch system.
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 75evo View Post
More than the 24V??? Wow!
I said right on top of my STANDARD compression 24v - I did not say more... Not to take away from what ol' Brad has achieved here, but just to keep it all in perspective; this is a heavily-modified 3.0 12v with HOURS and HOURS of Brad’s EXTREMELY detailed and tenacious time invested in sorting this thing! I mean - to his credit - it has taken a great deal to finally get the power from this motor!

The compression was increased in the 10.0:1 range, disck's cams are VERY lumpy (and set up for horsepower – not torque down-low…) They are quite lumpy, the exhaust is open, the intake is open, the EMS is a very expensive MoTec fully-programmable, stand-alone EMS, the cam-pulleys are variable, the intake is a custom affair that will cost big bucks to produce, it’s an internally-balanced motor with heads ported by Steve at Progressive Automotive, the intake runners are ported, there are custom headers, the enlarged throttle-body is a custom unit, so these are hardly "stock components” as dick jameson bloated below!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
Yes, and without all the complexity and cost involved. From stock components we get 275-300 HP. I prefer Megasquirt as it will work with distributor rather than wheel. Again simplicity rather than more "CHANGE"!
Complexity and cost - what are you talking about dick!? Where's the complexity and cost in what I did with my stock 24v transplant in the black car!? Oh, you mean the GTA intake cams that I DROPPED in there WITHOUT having to screw with re-shimming lifters...!? Sounds complex. You would rather run a grassroots EMS like Megasquirt through the hall-sender on the side of a sloppy old distributor!!!??? I did that with my first ever base-base GoTech install 7 years ago!

It works, but you could NEVER achieve the level of fine-tuning that Brad was able to accomplish here DUE to the precision of the 60-2 trigger-wheel and the crank-angle mag-sensor!!! Can’t – and should not – be compared! Play with carbs and leave the EMS to people who know what they are talking about!

Oh - and by the way - still waiting to see that 12 valve with "stock internal components" that makes 275 to 300 horsepower - don't care WHICH end of the car you measure the power at! While one might be able to interpolate that Brad's car has around 265-270 at the crank at this stage (based on a projected 215 to 220 at the wheels), this motor is now a long-long way from being built with “stock components” dick!!! Re-read the list of mods above again and tell me what here is stock (besides the block’s external dimensions perhaps…?)

Again, credit to Brad for what he has accomplished – he has had to do a GREAT deal more than throw together some "stock components" simply with some blowhard’s cams and voila! Sorry, Brad has had to work his arse of to bring it this far - it is a work of art now!

Dick's posts smacks of plowing with another man's cattle.
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Old 12-06-2010, 08:49 PM
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This engine is very impressive. Getting the power of a lightly modified 3.0 24v from a 3.0 12v is an accomplishment. It represents a lot of effort, time and money. That intake plenum alone represents a lot of work. A Milano with 220rwhp is a very fast car, and will rarely lose a drag race.

Was this easier, or cheaper than going the 24 valve route? I doubt it. However Alfas don't compare well in these two categories against other cars, so anyone seriously concerned with that is probably better off with a WRX, have you seen how much is available for those things? The owner wanted an Alfa with a hot 12 valve engine, and it's his car. I am sure it was a labor of love, because it was not cheap or easy.

Greg
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:35 AM
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Comments

Jungle boy is just JEALOUS!

He forgets that 10 to one is stock compression...
You don`t need all the high tech gadgets he mentions as I have repeatedly said. Just him ranting .
The cams Brad has should not be "lumpy" if set at the timing I suggested...
Rj
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Old 12-07-2010, 07:07 AM
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I suppose everyone should be jealous of Brad. He has an awesome car. In regards to compression, both JJ and RJ are correct. Yes, 10:1 is a stock compression ratio on some Alfa 3.0s. However Brad's engine probably didn't come from a 164S or some European version so for his engine 10:1 is a compression increase.

Richard, I don't think anybody doubts your cams. The most powerful Alfa 12V engine I know of ran your cams (until the transaxle suffered a catastrophic failure), but Brad's engine has a lot more going for it than just cams.

Greg
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
Jungle boy is just JEALOUS! He forgets that 10 to one is stock compression... The cams Brad has should not be "lumpy" if set at the timing I suggested... Rj
Jealous!? What an idiot - I have my own Alfa toys dick - great ones at that...

Dick, at least try to hide your ignorance. The standard 164 and Milano 3.0 12v V6 is a 9.5:1 compression motor - as was the base motor that Brad utilized for his build (a standard 9.5:1 Milano verde 12v 3.0 core.) Brad had the compression bumped to about 10.0:1 by modifying the rods and the pistons!

Yes, the 3.0 litre 164 S 12v is a 10.0:1 motor standard (and so is the 24v 164 3.0 litre), but neither of these were the basis for Brad's build; nor was a 10.0:1 motor ever "stock components" for any US-model Milano as you had implied. Compression was modified in this Milano - as was most everything else!

And yes - the cams ARE lumpy as all hell (and peaky up top), with a shortfall of lowdown torque (as could be expected from "hot cams" where the timing between intake and exhaust profiles are locked on a common cam and not separated and infinitely and individually variable as they are on a 4-cam motor!) Had it not been for the HUGE efforts that Brad put in to modifying other aspects of the motor for increased power, fine-tuning the ignition timing, optimizing the cam timing settings and sorting the intake and other aspects of the motor, he would have LOST a bunch of torque down low due to the peaky cams!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Gordon View Post
In regards to compression, both JJ and RJ are correct. Yes, 10:1 is a stock compression ratio on some Alfa 3.0s. However Brad's engine probably didn't come from a 164S or some European version so for his engine 10:1 is a compression increase.

...Brad's engine has a lot more going for it than just cams. Greg
Thanks for "moderating" Greg - as always your cool head is appreciated. Yes - correct - Brad's motor did not start life as a 10.0:1 12v, nor could that motor in a Milano be considered "stock components"...
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Last edited by junglejustice; 12-08-2010 at 12:43 AM.
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