V6 Indiuction - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 04:25 PM
Duk
Registered User
 
Duk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,562
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
A good setup will pull closer to 120% VE with normal asperation. (100% is a shame, not a point of pride)
Beyond that you've gotta get real tricky with cams and such, and/or go to forced induction.
If you could point me in the direction of a standard, road going, common car/engine that produces 120% VE, then I'm all eyes.

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Duk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 04:30 PM
1966-2013
Platinum Subscriber
 
Tifosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 13,741
Cam overlap alone will produce higher than 100% VE as the wave rushes out the exhaust, then as the exhaust closes, the follow on intake air that is still moving at high velocity stuffs the chamber with X amount more volume than that of the cylinder alone.

EDIT:
Max for normally asperated is purported to be 137%, average joe anycar without any work done, around 80%~85%

Formula for calculating VE = 3456 x CFM / CID x RPM

Words to read

Beyond that, you'll have to do your own research.

Last edited by Tifosi; 12-08-2010 at 04:47 PM.
Tifosi is offline  
post #33 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 04:34 PM
Duk
Registered User
 
Duk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,562
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
Cam overlap alone will produce higher than 100% VE as the wave rushes out the exhaust, then as the exhaust closes, the follow on intake air that is still moving at high velocity stuffs the chamber with X amount more volume than that of the cylinder alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk View Post
If you could point me in the direction of a standard, road going, common car/engine that produces 120% VE, then I'm all eyes.
And how is having that much overlap going to help a road car that doesn't have variable valve timing perform at low engine speeds?

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Duk is offline  
post #34 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 05:02 PM
1966-2013
Platinum Subscriber
 
Tifosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 13,741
How do you know how much overlap, or lift, or duration is or isn't needed to exceed 100%?
An hour ago you didn't even know you could go beyond 100% with normal asperation.
Tifosi is offline  
post #35 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 05:14 PM
Duk
Registered User
 
Duk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,562
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
How do you know how much overlap, or lift, or duration is or isn't needed to exceed 100%?
An hour ago you didn't even know you could go beyond 100% with normal asperation.
Hang on a second!!!!!
1st of all, I never said an engine couldn't go over 100% VE I sighted a real world example of a standard, common car that achieved 100% VE at sane engine speed (3000rpm) using manifold runner length.
I have read of Jaguar RACE engines that achieved 120% VE, but the relevance of a race engine to a road engine is very little!

And you still haven't named names of a STANDARD, COMMON, PRODUCTION CAR that has achieved 120% VE at sane, typical road car use by Joe Bloggs, engine speed!
And make it a 2 valve per cylinder, non variable valve timing 1 too!

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.

Last edited by Duk; 12-08-2010 at 05:27 PM.
Duk is offline  
post #36 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 05:23 PM
1966-2013
Platinum Subscriber
 
Tifosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 13,741
Not my job to research that, especially as it's almost never published and I'm not interested in punching numbers all night long into a calculator to find them just to satisfy your curiosity.
Tifosi is offline  
post #37 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 05:26 PM
Duk
Registered User
 
Duk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,562
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
Not my job to research that, especially as it's almost never published and I'm not interested in punching numbers all night long into a calculator to find them just to satisfy your curiosity.
That didn't stop you from making claims tho............

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Duk is offline  
post #38 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 05:35 PM
1966-2013
Platinum Subscriber
 
Tifosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 13,741
Quote:
that didn't stop you from making claims tho...
..!., ..........
Tifosi is offline  
post #39 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 05:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15
Jeff 85gtv6 your on the same track as I am,get the velocity stacks higher inside the plenum and away from the walls,also mount the T-body dead center and tapper the ends to create more air velocity to the end runners. the total volume is around 4 lts. stock was 3 .
Again the started as an experiment, nothing ventured nothing gained and to try to cure the uneven burn on my spark plugs.A few calculations and some research and so far its done what I wanted it to.
The fuel reg is a Aeromotive running at 42 psi
Brad
Bad Brad is offline  
post #40 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-08-2010, 06:01 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15
As far as smog go's I think we have it way easyer in Washington, they don't look under the car or in the engine bay and one more year and 87 cars won't have to go though again! I'm still tunning to pass,we'll see.
Bad Brad is offline  
post #41 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-09-2010, 05:59 AM
Registered User
 
junglejustice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Granolaville, Washington
Posts: 4,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
Had a long talk with Brad. Seems he`s had a while developing the motor he got from JJ. It was not what was represented by JJ and only made 159HP. (hmmm Stock?) Brad noted that you never see Dyno data from JJ. Wonder why
dick, you cockbag, Brad never bought a built engine of ANY kind from me! You don't know what you are talking about! He bought a rebuildable core. In fact, he bought a separate set of STOCK-STOCK 3.0 12v heads and a separate STOCK-STOCK sub-assembly from me (to be exact) and I would appreciate it if Brad would please come on here and verify that! Stop spreading lies and misrepresenting the facts dick, you look like an idiot!

Brad merely bought the old standard 80-90K mile 12v Milano Verde 3.0 V6 core out of my black car from me when I installed the 24v in it... Brad was responsible for the rebuild and his own modifications to that core.

As far as dyno-sheets; I have video up on You Tube - on the dyno - panning from the car to the dyno screen, so my numbers are well-documented dick! The red 12:1 compression 3.7 litre 24v n.a. car (it was in a charcoal primer in the videos at the time), was well-documented at 318 and 328 horsepower at the wheels with two different cam-settings (Glenwood cams - not dick jameson bull**** cams!)

The black 3.0 litre n.a 10.0:1 compression 24v Verde has 220 horsepower at the wheels - again - documented on the same dyno as Brad's car in fact!

Get a clue dick and stop lying and telling people that they can have "...275 to 300 horsepower from a 12v with stock components and your cams..."

Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano & 6-Speed Getrag; 3.7 Litre 24v Turbo Project! Various Classic Motorcycle Projects

Last edited by junglejustice; 12-09-2010 at 12:07 PM.
junglejustice is offline  
post #42 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-09-2010, 02:36 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
oz3litre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Adelaide South Australia
Posts: 2,923
Whilst the insults flying between JJ and Richard are very amusing, it is also sad that two people who do great work pushing the boundaries of what is possible with our beloved V6s, are behaving like 15 year old school girls. Come on guys, take a couple of deep breaths and get on with your good work and continue giving us the benefit of your knowledge and experience. We don't want to lose either of you.

Current Alfas
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
!989 75 3 litre (black). Shared project with my son.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.

Past Alfas
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).
oz3litre is offline  
post #43 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-09-2010, 03:13 PM Thread Starter
Richard Jemison
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfar7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 4,695
Poor JJ

Here is a 3.0 12 V with my cams. Check the dyno...Post # 24 and not from me...on a 10.5 to one motor with miss=timed cams.
Ferrari P4 build thread

Keep trying JJ you can learn...
Rj

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing
http://scuderiagiallo.com
"you don`t have to listen, but you won`t win the argument"!
"Nothing that I might suggest will be legal in California"
Alfar7 is online now  
post #44 of 76 (permalink) Old 01-15-2011, 01:54 PM
Registered User
 
ToonRboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,087
Send a message via Yahoo to ToonRboy Send a message via Skype™ to ToonRboy
Nice plenum! Looks like design was essentially 2-piece (floor w/bell housings and roof). Brad, do you think the fibre-glass resin will hold up in time to the heat and petrolium gases? Very nice indeed. I wonder if you could have achieved similar results by sending the stock one off to Extrude-hone?

What we need is someone to design a variable runner intake to help with low-end torque.

Worked quite well for Volvo.
Name:  Volvo V-VIS_1.jpg
Views: 928
Size:  52.9 KB
Name:  Volvo V-VIS_2.jpg
Views: 731
Size:  28.3 KB
and Volkswagon.
Name:  VR6_VIM_1.jpg
Views: 753
Size:  42.4 KB
Name:  VR6_VIM_2.jpg
Views: 737
Size:  36.5 KB
ToonRboy is offline  
post #45 of 76 (permalink) Old 01-15-2011, 03:55 PM
Duk
Registered User
 
Duk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,562
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToonRboy View Post
What we need is someone to design a variable runner intake to help with low-end torque.
Ford Australia used their dual length (short/long) inlet runners on both the old SOHC 12 valve and the continuously variable valve timing DOHC 24 valve engines.
However, the current incarnation of that engine did away with the cast aluminium dual length manifold and replaced it with a molded plastic example that uses 2 separate plenum chambers, 1 for the front 3 cylinders and 1 for the rear 3. Between the 2 plenum chambers is a butterfly valve that opens at some stage to join the 2 chambers together.
Maybe they rely even more on the VVT (rumor had it that the earlier use of the VVT was very simplistic in its tuning by Ford despite all the capacity of the Ford ECU to run very elaborate, individual mapping of both camshafts) to achieve the typical 4 litre engine low RPM torque.

Toyota also used dual plenum chambers that were linked at some stage during engine operation. They were used on both inline and V6 engines.

On a V6 engine, dual separate plenum chambers that are linked together at some stage, are much easier to implement for a backyarder than dual length runners. Whether dual chambers is as effective at broadening the torque curve as the dual length runners is harder to predict without accurate testing of the same engine with both designs.

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Duk is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome