V6 Indiuction - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

  #31 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 04:25 PM
Duk's Avatar
Duk Duk is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
A good setup will pull closer to 120% VE with normal asperation. (100% is a shame, not a point of pride)
Beyond that you've gotta get real tricky with cams and such, and/or go to forced induction.
If you could point me in the direction of a standard, road going, common car/engine that produces 120% VE, then I'm all eyes.
__________________
Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 04:30 PM
Tifosi's Avatar
1966-2013
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 13,741
Cam overlap alone will produce higher than 100% VE as the wave rushes out the exhaust, then as the exhaust closes, the follow on intake air that is still moving at high velocity stuffs the chamber with X amount more volume than that of the cylinder alone.

EDIT:
Max for normally asperated is purported to be 137%, average joe anycar without any work done, around 80%~85%

Formula for calculating VE = 3456 x CFM / CID x RPM

Words to read

Beyond that, you'll have to do your own research.
__________________
[i]Darren[/i]
[size=1][b]'84[/b] [b]manufacture[/b] ~ [b]'85[/b] [b]MY Spider Graduate[/b][/size]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spider-1966-up/85437-spider-technical-faq-digest.html][color=green][b][i]Spider technical FAQ[/i][/b][/color][/url]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/ghnl.html][color=darkblue][size=1][b]ghnl's[/size][/b][/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/Ljetspider.htm][color=red][size=1][i][b]'82~'89/Series 3 Spider L~jet diagnostic page[/color][/url][/b][/i]
[color=black][i]as hosted by[/i][/color]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/greg-gordon.html][color=darkblue][b]Greg Gordon's[/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/][color=red][i]HI Performance Store[/color][/url][/b][/i][/size] [size=1][b][i]&[/i][/b][/size] [url=http://www.okinjectors.com/][color=red][size=1][b][i]OK Injectors[/i][/b][/size][/color][/url]

Last edited by Tifosi; 12-08-2010 at 04:47 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 04:34 PM
Duk's Avatar
Duk Duk is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
Cam overlap alone will produce higher than 100% VE as the wave rushes out the exhaust, then as the exhaust closes, the follow on intake air that is still moving at high velocity stuffs the chamber with X amount more volume than that of the cylinder alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk View Post
If you could point me in the direction of a standard, road going, common car/engine that produces 120% VE, then I'm all eyes.
And how is having that much overlap going to help a road car that doesn't have variable valve timing perform at low engine speeds?
__________________
Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 05:02 PM
Tifosi's Avatar
1966-2013
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 13,741
How do you know how much overlap, or lift, or duration is or isn't needed to exceed 100%?
An hour ago you didn't even know you could go beyond 100% with normal asperation.
__________________
[i]Darren[/i]
[size=1][b]'84[/b] [b]manufacture[/b] ~ [b]'85[/b] [b]MY Spider Graduate[/b][/size]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spider-1966-up/85437-spider-technical-faq-digest.html][color=green][b][i]Spider technical FAQ[/i][/b][/color][/url]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/ghnl.html][color=darkblue][size=1][b]ghnl's[/size][/b][/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/Ljetspider.htm][color=red][size=1][i][b]'82~'89/Series 3 Spider L~jet diagnostic page[/color][/url][/b][/i]
[color=black][i]as hosted by[/i][/color]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/greg-gordon.html][color=darkblue][b]Greg Gordon's[/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/][color=red][i]HI Performance Store[/color][/url][/b][/i][/size] [size=1][b][i]&[/i][/b][/size] [url=http://www.okinjectors.com/][color=red][size=1][b][i]OK Injectors[/i][/b][/size][/color][/url]
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 05:14 PM
Duk's Avatar
Duk Duk is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
How do you know how much overlap, or lift, or duration is or isn't needed to exceed 100%?
An hour ago you didn't even know you could go beyond 100% with normal asperation.
Hang on a second!!!!!
1st of all, I never said an engine couldn't go over 100% VE I sighted a real world example of a standard, common car that achieved 100% VE at sane engine speed (3000rpm) using manifold runner length.
I have read of Jaguar RACE engines that achieved 120% VE, but the relevance of a race engine to a road engine is very little!

And you still haven't named names of a STANDARD, COMMON, PRODUCTION CAR that has achieved 120% VE at sane, typical road car use by Joe Bloggs, engine speed!
And make it a 2 valve per cylinder, non variable valve timing 1 too!
__________________
Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.

Last edited by Duk; 12-08-2010 at 05:27 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 05:23 PM
Tifosi's Avatar
1966-2013
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 13,741
Not my job to research that, especially as it's almost never published and I'm not interested in punching numbers all night long into a calculator to find them just to satisfy your curiosity.
__________________
[i]Darren[/i]
[size=1][b]'84[/b] [b]manufacture[/b] ~ [b]'85[/b] [b]MY Spider Graduate[/b][/size]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spider-1966-up/85437-spider-technical-faq-digest.html][color=green][b][i]Spider technical FAQ[/i][/b][/color][/url]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/ghnl.html][color=darkblue][size=1][b]ghnl's[/size][/b][/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/Ljetspider.htm][color=red][size=1][i][b]'82~'89/Series 3 Spider L~jet diagnostic page[/color][/url][/b][/i]
[color=black][i]as hosted by[/i][/color]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/greg-gordon.html][color=darkblue][b]Greg Gordon's[/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/][color=red][i]HI Performance Store[/color][/url][/b][/i][/size] [size=1][b][i]&[/i][/b][/size] [url=http://www.okinjectors.com/][color=red][size=1][b][i]OK Injectors[/i][/b][/size][/color][/url]
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 05:26 PM
Duk's Avatar
Duk Duk is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
Not my job to research that, especially as it's almost never published and I'm not interested in punching numbers all night long into a calculator to find them just to satisfy your curiosity.
That didn't stop you from making claims tho............
__________________
Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 05:35 PM
Tifosi's Avatar
1966-2013
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 13,741
Quote:
that didn't stop you from making claims tho...
..!., ..........
__________________
[i]Darren[/i]
[size=1][b]'84[/b] [b]manufacture[/b] ~ [b]'85[/b] [b]MY Spider Graduate[/b][/size]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spider-1966-up/85437-spider-technical-faq-digest.html][color=green][b][i]Spider technical FAQ[/i][/b][/color][/url]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/ghnl.html][color=darkblue][size=1][b]ghnl's[/size][/b][/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/Ljetspider.htm][color=red][size=1][i][b]'82~'89/Series 3 Spider L~jet diagnostic page[/color][/url][/b][/i]
[color=black][i]as hosted by[/i][/color]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/greg-gordon.html][color=darkblue][b]Greg Gordon's[/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/][color=red][i]HI Performance Store[/color][/url][/b][/i][/size] [size=1][b][i]&[/i][/b][/size] [url=http://www.okinjectors.com/][color=red][size=1][b][i]OK Injectors[/i][/b][/size][/color][/url]
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 05:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15
Jeff 85gtv6 your on the same track as I am,get the velocity stacks higher inside the plenum and away from the walls,also mount the T-body dead center and tapper the ends to create more air velocity to the end runners. the total volume is around 4 lts. stock was 3 .
Again the started as an experiment, nothing ventured nothing gained and to try to cure the uneven burn on my spark plugs.A few calculations and some research and so far its done what I wanted it to.
The fuel reg is a Aeromotive running at 42 psi
Brad
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 12-08-2010, 06:01 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15
As far as smog go's I think we have it way easyer in Washington, they don't look under the car or in the engine bay and one more year and 87 cars won't have to go though again! I'm still tunning to pass,we'll see.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #41 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2010, 05:59 AM
junglejustice's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Granolaville, Washington
Posts: 4,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
Had a long talk with Brad. Seems he`s had a while developing the motor he got from JJ. It was not what was represented by JJ and only made 159HP. (hmmm Stock?) Brad noted that you never see Dyno data from JJ. Wonder why
dick, you cockbag, Brad never bought a built engine of ANY kind from me! You don't know what you are talking about! He bought a rebuildable core. In fact, he bought a separate set of STOCK-STOCK 3.0 12v heads and a separate STOCK-STOCK sub-assembly from me (to be exact) and I would appreciate it if Brad would please come on here and verify that! Stop spreading lies and misrepresenting the facts dick, you look like an idiot!

Brad merely bought the old standard 80-90K mile 12v Milano Verde 3.0 V6 core out of my black car from me when I installed the 24v in it... Brad was responsible for the rebuild and his own modifications to that core.

As far as dyno-sheets; I have video up on You Tube - on the dyno - panning from the car to the dyno screen, so my numbers are well-documented dick! The red 12:1 compression 3.7 litre 24v n.a. car (it was in a charcoal primer in the videos at the time), was well-documented at 318 and 328 horsepower at the wheels with two different cam-settings (Glenwood cams - not dick jameson bull**** cams!)

The black 3.0 litre n.a 10.0:1 compression 24v Verde has 220 horsepower at the wheels - again - documented on the same dyno as Brad's car in fact!

Get a clue dick and stop lying and telling people that they can have "...275 to 300 horsepower from a 12v with stock components and your cams..."
__________________
Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano & 6-Speed Getrag; 3.7 Litre 24v Turbo Project! Various Classic Motorcycle Projects

Last edited by junglejustice; 12-09-2010 at 12:07 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #42 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2010, 02:36 PM
oz3litre's Avatar
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Adelaide South Australia
Posts: 2,476
Whilst the insults flying between JJ and Richard are very amusing, it is also sad that two people who do great work pushing the boundaries of what is possible with our beloved V6s, are behaving like 15 year old school girls. Come on guys, take a couple of deep breaths and get on with your good work and continue giving us the benefit of your knowledge and experience. We don't want to lose either of you.
__________________
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1988 75 3 litre (red).
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), daughter's new daily driver.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #43 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:13 PM
Alfar7's Avatar
Richard Jemison
Platinum Subscriber
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 3,896
Poor JJ

Here is a 3.0 12 V with my cams. Check the dyno...Post # 24 and not from me...on a 10.5 to one motor with miss=timed cams.
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/othe...ld-thread.html

Keep trying JJ you can learn...
Rj
__________________
Richard Jemison
RJR Racing
http://scuderiagiallo.com
"you don`t have to listen, but you won`t win the argument"!
"Nothing that I might suggest will be legal in California"
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #44 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2011, 01:54 PM
ToonRboy's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,985
Send a message via Yahoo to ToonRboy Send a message via Skype™ to ToonRboy
Nice plenum! Looks like design was essentially 2-piece (floor w/bell housings and roof). Brad, do you think the fibre-glass resin will hold up in time to the heat and petrolium gases? Very nice indeed. I wonder if you could have achieved similar results by sending the stock one off to Extrude-hone?

What we need is someone to design a variable runner intake to help with low-end torque.

Worked quite well for Volvo.
Name:  Volvo V-VIS_1.jpg
Views: 757
Size:  52.9 KB
Name:  Volvo V-VIS_2.jpg
Views: 610
Size:  28.3 KB
and Volkswagon.
Name:  VR6_VIM_1.jpg
Views: 624
Size:  42.4 KB
Name:  VR6_VIM_2.jpg
Views: 608
Size:  36.5 KB
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #45 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2011, 03:55 PM
Duk's Avatar
Duk Duk is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToonRboy View Post
What we need is someone to design a variable runner intake to help with low-end torque.
Ford Australia used their dual length (short/long) inlet runners on both the old SOHC 12 valve and the continuously variable valve timing DOHC 24 valve engines.
However, the current incarnation of that engine did away with the cast aluminium dual length manifold and replaced it with a molded plastic example that uses 2 separate plenum chambers, 1 for the front 3 cylinders and 1 for the rear 3. Between the 2 plenum chambers is a butterfly valve that opens at some stage to join the 2 chambers together.
Maybe they rely even more on the VVT (rumor had it that the earlier use of the VVT was very simplistic in its tuning by Ford despite all the capacity of the Ford ECU to run very elaborate, individual mapping of both camshafts) to achieve the typical 4 litre engine low RPM torque.

Toyota also used dual plenum chambers that were linked at some stage during engine operation. They were used on both inline and V6 engines.

On a V6 engine, dual separate plenum chambers that are linked together at some stage, are much easier to implement for a backyarder than dual length runners. Whether dual chambers is as effective at broadening the torque curve as the dual length runners is harder to predict without accurate testing of the same engine with both designs.
__________________
Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off










Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2002-2011 AlfaBB.com All Rights Reserved.



SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2