Other TS conversion information

[patpend2000]

After conversing with a fellow BB member about the TS conversions I have done, there's a lot of little things that I haven't mentioned in my other articles, so here we go.

1. There are multiple variations on the TS engine, only the TS engine from the 75 will work for a swap, the 164 TS engine is slightly different.

2. Not all cranks come w/an opening for a pilot hole, but any 2.0L crank can be used.

3. The stock fuel system needs to be upgraded to work with the TS's fuel injection, mainly installing an in-tank pump assembly from a bosch spider and possibly requiring that the pressure bypass assembly be removed from the fuel filter assembly in the engine compartment.

4. You might want to think about re-gearing the rear w/a latter 4:10 axle, with the TS's power, 1st gear is all but useless w/the 4:56 rear.

5. The stock fuel injection can be "chipped" with a chip from squadra tuning.

6. fitting a TS engine into a spider isn't easy.

7. fitting a TS engine into a spider makes a spider a lot more fun.

8. Using a Jim Steck TS/SPICA intake assembly allows the use of the stock throttle linkage assembly, thereby simplifying the install.

[blu58spider]

Thanks for the information! I have been thinking about the best way to get fuel to the engine. (Its much more fun to sit inside where its warm and speculate about some phase of the project that won't arrive for months than it is to do what I really should be doing -- crawling under the car scraping off old undercoat and rust!)

My car had a mecanical pump mounted on the engine block, so there's nothing between the tank and the engine other than the old style glass bowl filter. Do you think that the in-tank pump is the best way to go? (Somehow having an electrical component *inside* the gastank gives me the creeps ) That means running power to the pump of course -- any suggestions of the best circuit to tap that from?

Thanks,

John

[patpend2000]

Don't worry about the in-tank pump, most modern car's use them.

It sounds like you are going to need two pumps, the in-tank pump doesn't supply enough pressure to the engine, and a single pump outside the tank will work, but in hard cornering you may starve the engine of fuel.

To wire into the pump, you just need to connect the pink/white wire from the wiring harness to the + side of the pump.

Kelly

[coda tronca]

I was wondering if anyone in California doing a TS conversion into LJet injected spider has managed to keep a closed loop (oxygen sensor operational) system in order to comply with emission standards.Is there a way to incorporate into the open loop Motronic system the EFI setup comes with or is it going to adapt the Ljet system to the engine?. Any actual "tales from the trenches" would be really helpful Cheers and a Happy New Year!

[P.Webb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by coda tronca I was wondering if anyone in California doing a TS conversion into LJet injected spider has managed to keep a closed loop (oxygen sensor operational) system in order to comply with emission standards.Is there a way to incorporate into the open loop Motronic system the EFI setup comes with or is it going to adapt the Ljet system to the engine?. Any actual "tales from the trenches" would be really helpful Cheers and a Happy New Year!

[coda tronca]

Thanks for the reply. To be more specific what I was referring to is the actual retaining of the oxygen sensor which to my knowledge is not present on the 75 TSengine I have (I would be very happy to be wrong).I am familiar with Motronic system using a Lambda sensor, and the the LJet systems on the 82+ spiders do have some type of spark system, albeit a lame one at that(but furtunatlely removable). What I am trying to do is keep the car emission compatible for the BAR(bureau of Automotive repair) referee to inspect and grant a tag for the modifications done .From what I have seen on engine swaps(Japanese), ignition changes have not been an issue for the inspectors. I would love as much of the Motronic system the car came with as it works well as it comes from Alfa.Any ideas or personal experiences would be super valuable.Cheers

[Craig]

Yes, a Lamda sensor can be / is part and parcel of the Motronic 4.1 system.

Go to my site (see sig) and download (at least) the Alfa 75, Twin Spark 'S' manual.

[patpend2000]

Not all TS engines come with wiring for O2 sensors. Most stock motronic wiring harnesses that I have seen for TS engines do not have a provision for an O2 sensor. It is my understanding that most TS engines didn't come closed loop, although, rumor has it that TS 75's sold in the UK run closed loop systems.

As for CA, I have done two conversions, the first was to an 88 spider, luckily it was registered in a "smog exempt" county, therefore I did not have to perform any smog checks.

I wouldn't be suprised if a stock open loop TS engine would pass though, I would guess that with both ignitions in good working condition the emissions would be (or should be) low.

On another note, I will have a complete Autronic programable fuel injection system for sale in the near future, with a MSD DIS box and a custom distributor to run it all.

Kelly

[coda tronca]

There you have it!.Thanks! that was exactly what I was looking for ( after pouring over the TS wiring diagram).The state of California is going to require a working oxygen sensor(and I am told the referee could check a scope pattern on it if they deem it necessary at inspection time),Also, aside from passing the CO, HC and NOX during the dynamic(dyno) test , they will also require a stock exhaust manifold or a California CARB(California Air Resources Board) approved header, a catalytic converter, as well as any emission items present on the (model year )of the engine swapped into the car.(or at least what came as equipped on the spider for that later model year as the swap engine. With all that,a tag is then issued and the car is now "legal" at least until the laws change. (again).Thanks, guys for the replies and Kelly, please keep us posted as to when your new setup will be available for sale. Cheers.

[fulvia1600s3]

I have had a 1989 UK 75 twin Spark and have worked on a friends late 75 'LE' neither of which had any exhaust sensors/ Lambda probes. As the UK 75's had no Cats fitted they did not really need closed loop! Maybe the later twin Spark 164's had Lambdas after 1994 when the UK imposed Cats on new cars?

[Tazio Novante]

Regardinge the rebuild:

I put an '91 75 TS enngine in my Berlina and there was already a hole in the crankshaft which was exactly good for the top bearing. I asume that all engines from '89 have the proper shaft, as then the FWD 164 was available.

I put only one fuel pump under the body, next to the braka balancer under the rear bench. I only made a 2nd fuel lining back to the thank. It runs well without the pump in the tank. This engine also had the lambda sensor, but I removed the emission relais that was fitted. Also i mounted a modified squadra tuning chip. Works great!

Michel

[Berlinista]

....and I re- invented Michel's system exactly! No pump in the tank.Original Bosch pump under rear bench, return line for fuel made to enter in a scrounged Lancia fuel pickup that fitted exactly. (you could use one from a spica car)
Computer under parcel tray.
I used front of older 2.0 engine to retain all the parts like the water pump, rev drive etc. Oh, and by the way, you can use OLDER 164 engines as they are the same as a 75 engine.
And a hole in the back of the crank is easily done by any machine shop. Dont do this at home!
Rik

[iachella]

A question for Michel (Tazio Novante): Hopefully you are still monitoring as this is a very old thread. I did a search on O2 sensors to do some research and found it.

The question - did you remove the O2 sensor and the fuel quality plug (Red Emissions Plug)? Or just the plug? You say it runs great. Do you know if the computer is expecting the O2 sensor signal?

Thanks

[TS_turbo]

there is two alfa 75 TS setups .. early ones don`t have CAT and lambda control
later ones have both CAT and lambda closed loop control interesting thing is that early 75 TS have more aggressive cams than latter ones

[iachella]

Yes, I've come to understand that as I search for threads on the topic and read through Craig's documents. What I'm trying to understand is what will the computer do if it was originally a non-cat/sensor and the fuel plug is changed to something that is expecting an O2 sensor like say Blue, but no sensor is in place. Ie, what kind of fuel settings or map will it chose throughout the rev range.

Mine is an early version so it has no provisions for O2 sensor and it has a Red plug. We have to run cats in California here, so I can't remove it. Air injection to the exhaust was used in the 70s here on open loop systems that had to have cats, so I'm having that built right now on the TS manifolds.

I'm just trying to understand what the ECU will do when fuel plugs are changed and no O2 sensor is added. We also have pretty bad gas here in CA, at 91 octane max. So even knowing what the ECU is doing with respect to the quality of the gas is important to me.

Anyone know all these details?