Hi Biba,

Great thread topic!

Honestly... best thing since sliced bread! I would really never fit anything but a twin spark in another of my cars. I have run my current 2.0 T/S for 15,000 awesome miles now and am completely hooked. I run mine on 45mm Webers and 3-D mapped ignition - ultimate beauty and driveability. Low and mid range is amazing, you can put your foot flat from 1500rpm and it will pull cleanly through to 7,200rpm... not bad considering its got 198BHP! When I go to trackdays such as at the Nurburgring Nordschleife I have genuine BMW E46 M3 and Porsche 996 Carrera 2 performance. (Attached is a photo of a 996 GT3 about to get gobbled up at the Ring!)

A nord couldn't dream of the mid range, or quite frankly the maximum output of a t/s. Even with all the cleverest head work you really cannot get within 15BHP of the equivalent t/s, added to the fact that you then have nothing below 4,500rpm either - its really a no brainer choice for the ultimate fast road/trackday motor.

We have now swapped to a t/s in our race car as well - the Dutch Alfa Trofeo and French Modified Historic Saloon Championship that we race in allow such an engine, honestly its the single greatest lap time upgrade we have ever made - including moving to slicks! In race traffic its streets ahead of a Nord, the mid range punch just nails you past anything this side of IMSA 75s. We have more power all the way from 5,500 -through to 7,200rpm than we have seen as an absolute maximum output from a Nord... imagine that on track!

Anyone else as over excited as me?!?!!?

 

it will pull cleanly through to 7,200rpm...

Does it do 7200rpm realiably? My nord lost its head gasket when I got it to 7500rpm...

Great post! keep the info coming!!

best regards

 

Max, to be honest I was envisioning folks that have installed a TS in their street car replying. However, it is also good to know they hold up well in racing mode. Did you by any chance use Jim Kartalamakis's book as a reference guide when bringing your engine up to 198BHP? I have his second (and first) book and he really is a Weber fan.

Do you care to 'share' any of the specs of your modifications to get the increased HP, or at least point to the general area of your major modifications? It seems to be pretty much a given the head gets the majority of attention on a nord engine set up for racing. Of course you made mods to the head, but I have to assume far fewer than one would on a nord engine - or not?

While not the stock Motronic, but I'd think fuel injection would be one of the ways to increased HP, even more so than 45's. But hey, I'm here to learn.

One of my goals with this thread is to take TS swaps out of being a secret society - with each TS owner/modifier being their own secret society. If I had one in a race car I might be relunctant to share detailed info, but for the non-race folk, why not give details of yours so others 'in the same boat' can benefit?

Biba

 

I have 2. One is for the street and I drive it daily. It is a stock Motronic setup in a '69 GTV. It's GREAT! The other is for the track. It was carburated (Weber 45's and slightly hotter cams) but it s now a "chipped" Motronic car. It's a '65 Sprint GT. In that I changed from carbs to FI, you can assume I like the FI better. Frankly, I'd put a TS in my Jr Z if it would fit.

 

... but it s now a "chipped" Motronic car.

Squadra????

 

Never read Jim's book but I am aware of his work. Key to t/s power is in clever cam design. IMO the only way to get more power on injection that carbs is to use throttle bodies, I still haven't been able to justify the cost of a good throttle body system, a cheap one is worse than carbs. Especially given the drivability that you get by using a 3-D mapped ignition system with Webers. Its not all racing stuff.... the 198BHP version in my GTA Replica (whith white screen banner) is my road car, very definately not a race car!

 

I've had a twinspark in my 74 GTV for several years now. And I have absolutely no regrets. The low end is noticebly stronger and it pulls smoothly up to redline. My TS is mostly "stock" in that I used the stock FI and igntion. I do have slightly hotter cams and chip but that only improved the upper rpms slightly I'd say. I'm not sure the cams and chip were worth it for daily driving though.

Overall, I'd say that the car drives the way I always thought it should. My car wasn't particularly stock when I bought it and I've continued to have lots of fun with it since.

 

My experiens with ts transpant with 40mm carbs and C@B camshafts is that it is a nice car too drive but i like the old nord engine both my nord and ts engine have 150 bhp and the nord with almost 200Nm and the ts with 185Nm.

But i feel that if you are running close too stock you realy need the injection because you need the camshaft adjuster for good torque, my problem is that the ports are too big for carbs, if you drive with 2000 rpm and you go on the gas due too the total calaps off vacuum the car stumbles.


For absolud bhp the ts is thet best.


.

 

Great thread, Biba, and I look forward to more comments. I'll give my opinion after I get my TS GT Jr back on the road. The original rebuild before installation before I bought the car left a lot to be desired and I blew a head gasket (probably due to detonation) on the track last month. We don't know if the head had been shaved too much, but we're going to try a copper gasket. Mine is a 75 engine with 45 Webers and a Steck 8-wire distributor. It definitely has torque but I wasn't that happy with the top end. We'll see what a proper rebuild and fine tuning produces before considering non-stock cams ala Banks.
Sfourza

 

Just an additional little comment.

I went into this conversion a little blind and naive perhaps but I had to do it. When I did my conversion no one was making any parts for this swap. Jim Steck hadn't yet done a TS and there was no conversion bible at that time. My very talented mechanic (Bob Vollner) did a great job sorting through it all and I continue to enjoy every minute in the car. The only real question was the header and the good people at Ricambi were very helpful to me in realizing my conversion.

I would think by now this conversion would almost be "straight forward". Again, I might be a bit naive.

 

I'm sure there those who are considerably more intuitive than others when it comes to swapping. Also, if they are familiar with electronic fuel injection, know how to trouble shoot it, and are retaining it when installing, I would assume it is pretty 'straight forward' for them.

One of the reasons I phrased it - "...would do it again, knowing what they (you) know now?" - is for those where the installation wasn't straight forward. Meaning was the struggle worth it? I'll be installing my TS in an Alfetta GT which has some different problems than for someone installing one in a Spider or GTV. 'We' can bolt up the exhaust using the stock TS exhaust manifolds and can retain the TS sump pan, however there is a hood interference problem with the front of the engine.

Mostly I want to hear if its worth it but certainly wouldn't mind if there was some exchange of 'tips'. I gather most are not too happy with the choice of aftermarket air cleaner (I agree) and wouldn't it be great if someone came up with an air cleaner which physically fits in both 'types' of Alfa and looks like it belongs there?

But, please, keep the 'owner satisfaction' comments coming in.

Biba

 

Any chance that you have done a search here?

There are many people who have already described the merits of doing it. Not one that I recall was negative.

It is good to see in your last post what specific areas you have questions about, that should get you answers.

 

Mine was just a trial engine as I now fit them for willing customers. It has stock internals linished polished balanced, gas-flowed head etc etc and now runs 45mm Webers.

I carried out all the work myself, that is converting the intake manifold to host the Webers, modified a datsun distributer, and removed the variator on the inlet cam and welded it completely advanced. This was all hugely labor intensive!

By no means a cheap exercise, but yet what is...

Mine is in need of some dyno work, it has a flat spot at aound 2000rpm, im not sure if this is a result of what 'han' stated: 'But i feel that if you are running close too stock you realy need the injection because you need the camshaft adjuster for good torque, my problem is that the ports are too big for carbs, if you drive with 2000 rpm and you go on the gas due too the total calaps off vacuum the car stumbles.'

I am also getting the distributer tested soon as i have no idea of what the curve is doing, in fact i haven't had the cap off it since modifying it and starting her up. It is probably pretty soft at the moment, and with modern fuels you can get a lot more advance in early. Probably if i did another for myself i would look into programmable ignition, however i do like the look of the 10 lead monster!

The TS now with the 45's and almost run in, is very responsive, i guess the 4.5kg flywheel helps! It pulls very hard and is so willing to rev, it really does just want to keep on going... Torque is phenomenal throughout the rev range and for a road going motor you couldn't get near it with a nord.

Maybe with all the time and effort put in, it may have been worth while 'warming' it up a bit more, but for a road going car its a super driver, and if nothing else, I think it looks pretty good (if she dont go, chrome it!)

 

James, I've not done a search but have been trying for some time to make a point of reading anything regarding the TS on this forum. However, it could be listed in one of a myriad places and often regards asking for advice on a problem (nothing wrong with that).

While I'm not trying to start a Twin Spark register here, but felt it would be nice if those who have gone through the swap list it on one thread.

Unless I'm missing something, the two main differences of these swaps is which model it was installed in and what fuel system is being used.

I did assume most are pleased by the results of the swap, but wanted to get a general idea of 'how pleased'.

If someone has listed this info elsewhere and perhaps included a photo, or several, what's wrong with also listing it here?

Dino246, thanks for going into some detail regarding your labor of love. It is truly a work of art. I have to say, once all of the Motronic items have been stripped away, it sure looks purty. Actually with those angled air horns, it looks a lot like a 'somewhat' very trick vintage race engine.

What surprises me is that it appears as if most TS swappers have used the 45's. To my way of thinking this makes it a modern version of the GTA engine - no bad thing. But I do continue to feel that a well sorted out aftermarket EFI system would be the ideal for these engines - though I don't know a thing about them, let alone which one works 'best' in the TS.

Years ago a group of us were at a fellows Jaguar shop. If you've ever seen one of the engine bays on a mid 80's Jag V12, you know what a nightmare of hard and flex lines there is. He'd installed a V12 using an aftermarket EFI in a hot rod and it was extremely clean under the hood - as opposed to an engine that the engineers kept adding peripheral 'stuff' until they got the engine to run right and 'pass smog'.

What's neat about photos of these engine bays is no two are exactly alike. I'd sure love to see one with a supercharger installed.

Biba

 

What is wrong? People put alot of effort into making their Posts. Dino who has given you one picture, has his own thread making many details and points of his personal installation. Why should he go through all the trouble to do it a second time for this thread when the search function is easy to use and works so well? I guess if this was made a sticky, then people who cared enough could post links to their personal posts...

Sorry, if I come off a grump, but one major purpose of any BBS is to share information, and there is a WEALTH of knowledge in archived posts just waiting to be searched through! NEW questions like your question about the air cleaner really adds to the mix!

Also, (this is catty of me) when a poster asks a question that has been answered many times over in older threads and it is obvious that they have not searched do not get as much help from the readers. What helps:

1. Do a search for all your questions and read. There are many things here relating to EFI and Carbs. I won't say you will find your answers, but you will be armed with knowledge that will allow you to ask specific questions that ignite the readers and elicit answers from them. People get tired of answering the same question.

2. You won't sound clueless.

Listing things in one thread eventually makes it so large that newer people don't read the whole thing and ask questions that have already been asked and answered before, or require searching (see the connection?) to get to a specific point anyway... Sorry, but once again, searching it easy and it works great.

There is a supercharged TS out there... You just have to search for it...

 

I had never driven a 75 Twin Spark before I did my conversion into my 2000 Spider, but all the press reports at the time reported good performance / economy with the Alfa "noise" still there. I did my twin spark conversion on a small budget so I kept to the stock fuel injection and wasn't sure what to expect.

Having driven a few thousand miles on this engine, I'm totally addicted to it. Lots of low down torque matches the gearing of the 2000 Spider (4.1:1 diff) very well, so you can row it along through the gears listening to the lovely twin cam burble, covering the ground briskly without really trying. However, if you want to go harder then this engine will also oblige and pulls hard in the upper rev range. The power range seems to be broad and the number of modern cars it can live with amazes me. I also get much better fuel economy than I did with my 2.0 on carbs. I would do it again!

I think a Twin Spark in a chrome bumpered Alfetta GTV would make a great car!

 

James/Insoc, if someone said nothing more than, "I installed mine in a '70 GTV keeping the Motronic. Later I switched to a Haltech system and like it a lot better. Especially with the Haltech, I'd do it again in a heartbeat." Then maybe, or not including one photo of the engine bay, that would be fine.

I'm sure not upset if someone wants to share more information, but that's all the information I'm specifically asking. Who really cares if the same info is on another thread - except yourself?

Rossoverde just commented on a chrome bumpered Alfetta GTV. Does that bother you also since info on Alfettas and chrome bumpers exist elsewhere on the BB?

By-the-by Rossoverde, thanks for replying. Right now I'm planning on installing mine, also keeping the Motronic, in a bumperless Alfetta GT. My daily driver is a '75 Alfetta GT with dual 40 DCOE's and I also get terrible gas mileage (and little low end torque).

Biba

 

IF you check thru the search engine or even jog your memory you will find several threads about some experiences owners have had with twinspark conversions, particularly that the plans they had to aquire certain necessary custom built parts has been such a dissapointment. They can not get a response from the vendor (2 years in my case), or they have paid for parts that they don't receive, and they are well aware that others have gotten parts and answers in far less time. This forum has been very clear about these posts being inappropriate. These owners have had to find alternate sources, or pay the exchange rate for parts, they may be no more interested in discussing the positive aspects of this alternate society, (not secert) than you are in discussing the dissapointments they have experienced within your TS society. You want info on the before and after performance gains, well these conversions are not new, and neither are the well stated opinons of core members that claims that 4cyl Alfa's can keep up with WRX's or entry level BMW's and Porsche's are pure BS. Perhaps these owners prefer not to revisit that subject. When I started planing my SC project the post got not one response, a later post as the project proceded resulted in a response that the supercharger model that is the base of this system doesn't exsist and that I should follow the lead of another members work, We are using different approaches and they are not quite compatable. not a matter of right or wrong, just different, shouldn't be odd that the system and info your community receives would come from the source that you support.

 

You want info on the before and after performance gains, well these conversions are not new, and neither are the well stated opinons of core members that claims that 4cyl Alfa's can keep up with WRX's or entry level BMW's and Porsche's are pure BS. Perhaps these owners prefer not to revisit that subject.
Max, if this is the part of the post that you felt was an attack on your work, please reread, I am explaining that I will not dicuss any performance figures with this forum because of past responses that I am simply full of #$%^ for making claims similar to yours.

 

alfa of-corse, I guess we can pencil you in as it's not worth the effort? Sorry if my bringing up the word (supercharger) in relation to the TS engine brought back unpleasant memories for you.

Unfortunately everything you said made me feel all the more convinced that a "one-stop-shopping" site Solely for the TS engine would be a great idea. My very basic questions merely touch the surface. Yes, the BB's "Engine Conversion" forum is extremely helpful, but one has to wade through the, "I want to install a 3.7 liter V6 in a '56 Spider," threads (slight exaggeration).

As far as the parts problem is concerned it is my feeling if someone gives a supplier every chance to comply (deliver), and if they don't, then go on the appropriate forum and detail your complaints and name names.

Several years back I exchanged a number of emails with Jim Steck. Yes, Jim might be one of those you're talking about. I gather he is swamped, but I do agree if someone offers a product, they should a give a reasonably realistic time frame it will be delivered in - and carry through. I bring up his name in that he loves superchargers, and I'd sure be surprised if one couldn't install one on a TS and after some (perhaps a great deal) R&D, make it work like a champ.

Apparently I'm making people unhappy with this thread, but obviously it will die quickly if no one is interested. Meaning, no one Has to read it, yet alone reply.

Biba

 

not worth the effort, in regards to what? You buy a part from me, inquire as to more TS parts. and then make the absurd blunder of sending to me an email also sent to your freinds that Yes you bought from me, BUT , its on charge card, and you can't lose money, and you will, What was the phrase? oh yea make sure I burn in hell if I try to rip you off, over 1000 alfa sales and what less than 6 charges of fraud, none of which can be proven, and less than the number of buyers making claims that delivery confirmation disproves, and here you are perpetuating this myth that I can not be trusted, which is why I no longer sell to the public, and as long as people like you continue to do so, well yes, trying to rebuild trust with the larger community is not worth the effort, and thank you for your assistance. Like I said, it's less than 1% of Alfa owners I consider crooks. the problem is how willing people like you are to beleive and assist them, You where very close to the info on Haltech Supercharged TS you wanted, if you are now limping around it is not because I slammed the door on your foot, that a self inflicted gunshot wound and you know it. and here you are looking for info on some Secret Society, Haltech systems, and Supercharged TS, there is no secret society, yes I use Haltech, Yes I build Supercharged TS 105 ready motors, and no I don't talk to people who don't trust me and lead others to believe I can not be trusted. SO, your fishing expedition, was it worth it? I can't help but laugh, after sending that e mail to me in error, you expect me to assist you. I won't and you go fishing here, maybe I am mistaken, and I'm sure you will claim I am, but Haltech, Supercharged?

 

:smack:

Last try.

Reading the posts of others here builds community. I have read all about Bruce Colby's TS installations. He has spent much time explaining things, answering questions, spending much effort so other's times are easier. He is not the only one to do this.

You have not done anything wrong specifically, but you ask questions that have already been answered, or you show laziness... Which is a ugly trait to show. A EASY Google search with the terms: Supercharged Twinspark reveals two interesting links:

http://www.autocomponenti.com/tech.htm

http://www.alfagtv6.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1028&view=previous&sid=3ebea2f423b854ffb89ec8afea7cbe20

I feel like I am trying to do you a favor, because you look ridiculous, as in picking your nose in public. You should not do it. It amazes me you have so many posts, and come off so newbish... But I see now it was mostly a rouse...

QUOTE: "Who really cares if the same info is on another thread - except yourself?" END QUOTE

Many people care, for all the reasons I have already pointed out. In the begining there was nothing wrong with what you were asking, but as your questions became more specific, and you expect people to answer you without you putting out any effort? Supercharged TS engines? At first I could not believe you were that daft, but after reading Alfa of Course, I see it was a small white lie... Jim Steck has been supercharging TS engines for some time. Bonneville Spider? Front Cover of International Auto Parts awhile back? Earlier then that in his own GTV?

Why bother to help you when it is obvious you don't want to help yourself.

The SIMPLEST answer to your original question based on the effort you are willing to put forth is to pay someone to install a TS engine for you. You already know they are better then the Nord...

One stop shopping for a TS swap... Ummm... They more or less exsist... I guess you don't search?

QUOTE: "Yes, the BB's "Engine Conversion" forum is extremely helpful, but one has to wade through the, "I want to install a 3.7 liter V6 in a '56 Spider," threads (slight exaggeration). " END QUOTE.

Nope. If you search for Twinspark related info, you would not be reading crap about a V6 installation in a spider... Guess what though, if you had a specific question, and searched for it, and came up with a zero, or you need more specific info related to the topic, I bet you would have a good question that:

1. Someone would enjoy answering.
2. You struck Virgin Territory.

And no, I do agree with you, your original question was harmless and a good one. But your intent, and later questions are what I was trying to be helpful with.

 

I routinely run mine up to 7000rpm and perhaps a bit more. It seems to like it and it sure sounds nice too.

 

TS in my 78 Spyder. Don't know if I should be putting my 2 cents in, it sounds hostile here. Anyway mine has stock Motronic. My mechanic did a great job, did not lower mounts, cut air box and repositioned oil cap to back of engine. Hood closes now. I use it as a fun street car, and enjoy keeping up with many of the new cars while still having the classic Alfa look. Car starts always, runs cool, idles perfectly. As far as I'm concerned, I love it.

 

Oil Cap Repositioned



That is a great Idea for the Oil Cap problem Lou . Could you post some phots of your setup? I never had trouble closing the hood but the cap does rub ever so slightly.

 

No hostile intentions here.

You are providing valuable information that the original question asked, I am sorry if I created an atmosphere that feels hostile to other posters.

 

My first two posts were polite and helpful.

Yes, I agree with a community based on Dialogue, but not one that requires endless re-typing of technical related information. It is like having a Library in your house, and not using it, and to make it worse asking all the authors who wrote the books what is it exactly they wrote in them?

If the books were read over, and specific intelligent questions formed after reading were asked of the authors, that is contributing to the community.

Yes I can be a dick, but this is not one of those times, I assure you. I started out helpful, went out of my way to include examples of what I am talking about, ran into a wall, and went straight to brutal honesty.

A post like this adds to community:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=43844

The original intent of this post added to community, but now I am repeating myself and kicking a dead animal.

P.S. People who don't help themselves in a Community do not get free help from others. It is called paying for a service if you want everything without contributing.

 

Part of the problem, a large part, is that it is not a community issue, it's business! I have a shopping list and a set of A-Z instructions, to the shopping list add the flat rebuild fee = motor price, WRONG, add the difference between the A-Z motor and the mule, divided and added too sold complete motors, this info was not acquired thru a Megasquirt like shareware community of owner/builders. This is a resonable business practice, and I have a right to recover expenses and nonbillable hrs over the "out the door" cost of the mule. Should another businessman expect this community to fill in all the blanks in his shopping list and A-Z instructions for a specific combo, if his intent is profit? That's for you too decide. Should he expect another businessman to give him this info? That's for me too decide and the answer is NO! I have no intention of "taking it with me" but I don't advertise or in any way suggest that anything is for sale, take orders or deposits, or do any business beyond a very small group. No exceptions. The sale to biba was an exception, and there won't be anymore. But I still feel that businessmen have no place in a open code or shareware community system other than as contributors.

 

I do want to point out I didn't begin this thread as a "How to Install a Twin Spark Engine" forum. My original questions, and nothing has changed, are what I'd call surface type questions. Not unlike someone asking, "How ya doin'?" Although a bit more specific than that.

I fully feel anyone who has R&D'd a project such as TS installation and trouble shooting, ad if they go enough detail along with 'do this' - 'don't do that' type information/observations - certainly deserves to be compensated. True, it has to be documented and in my case, would like a hard copy.

Incidentally, I really appreciate it when someone goes out of their way to help me such as alfa of-course did. Had exactly what I needed and at a fair price. I couldn't ask for any more than that.

Now I'm the one really getting off topic - but when I first bought my '75 Alfetta in '78, I asked around as to who was the best and most knowledgeable Alfa mechanic around. The name Dave Vegher came up repeatedly. I called Dave up and said, "I'd like to buy two hours of your shop rate/time," then told him why. I really picked his brain and he in turn pointed out things on my car I had no idea about such as it might have been one of the Alfetta's from the first group delivered to the LA area - and that there'd been a fire in the boat's hold. It sure explained why all of the misc. rubber parts were falling apart.

Knowledge is everything and anyone wanting it should be willing to pay for it. There is a lot of information out there as James has pointed out (several times and in a couple of places). I don't feel I'm so much lazy as much as I like things very organized. If a how to book on installing a TS engine (especially in an Alfetta GT) existed, I'd pay fairly serious money for it. I know engines but I know virtually nothing about electronics.

Biba