Twin Spark Swap Owner's Satisfaction Survey

[iachella]

Brad says it all. Your Nord with the EFI feels smooth and great, that's for sure. But don't be fooled into thinking you've created what the TS is. If that is what you are after, that's great too. The Nord is to be enjoyed as well. I have a TS in my 79 Alfetta, but I've decided to keep the Nord in my 74 GTV. It has a character that I don't want to part with.

[Biba69]

I've asked this question before, but why would going to Webers, I assume 45's, increase the HP on a TS? In my very unknowledgeable way, I could possibly see that well sorted out 45's 'might' be able to get more total/max HP, but it seems to me a well set up EFI system should beat carbs hands down throughout the rev range (meaning being considerably more streetable). Or does it come down to those who install carbs, also do a lot more to the TS' internals?

And for those who care, I'd also think a TS with an EFI system would also get considerably better gas mileage than with a pair of 45's.

Biba

[Grant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 180OUT I That's an intangable I'm still scratching my head over, Brett. Apparently, the 2L Nord and TS motors are pretty close together in terms of overall design; the major difference being the TS's better cylinder head. So, I guess a lynchpin question is how much actual difference in overall performance would there be between a 2L with well ported head, 10:1 compression, fully mapped engine management and a similar TS? It would be great if someone could take two similar cars and compare a strong Nord motor with a strong TS motor.

[180OUT]

Obviously, the TS motor benefits from a more modern design, while the Nord motor, by comparison, is a rather quaint (if wonderfully so) survivor from an earlier age.

That being said, JimK's book (2nd. ed.) gives us some reasonable comparisons:

Ref: page 19 for flow measurments of various Nord mods versus a a TS. There is a significant improvement when a modified Nord head uses 46mm intakes. It would appear that, relative to stock, modified Nord heads show a significantly greater improvement than similarly modified TS heads do to stock TS configurations (which already benefit from an inherently better design).

Ref: page 66 for dyno runs which show various Nord motors versus a modified TS.

The Nord motors tend to get "on the cam" a bit later than the TS. At higher RPM's the similarities between the two motors are more pronounced.,

[cowfy]

hey brad!the two ts motors i've had apart both had 11.3 lift cams as standard.so whats a mild cam?i've had made 46mm valves with good flow design.just waiting for time to do the work on her.this manley company in new jersey made them up for me.they made me a set for a nord motor a while back.there's this guy jessie there.pro stuff.cost me about 110$

[braddo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biba69 I've asked this question before, but why would going to Webers, I assume 45's, increase the HP on a TS? In my very unknowledgeable way, I could possibly see that well sorted out 45's 'might' be able to get more total/max HP, but it seems to me a well set up EFI system should beat carbs hands down throughout the rev range (meaning being considerably more streetable). Or does it come down to those who install carbs, also do a lot more to the TS' internals? And for those who care, I'd also think a TS with an EFI system would also get considerably better gas mileage than with a pair of 45's. Biba

[crashmctavish]

As I have said previously, I replaced my 1600 Nord motor with a TS Bosch 4.1 Motronic standard set up. The original motor produced 110BHP at 21MPG on lead replacement fuel. The TS produces about 150BHP at 34MPG on unleaded fuel. You can chat about figures & tuning all day long. Do you want to use it on the street? If so the TS with std EFI is a no brainer. Its smooth powerful & efficient. With the 2000 LSD it hits 120mph easily. Mine cost me £90.00 on e bay It has covered 56k miles from new & runs like a dream. If you want to go racing the alfaholics route is proven.

[bcal]

I hear what you're all saying about the improved head design of the TS.
I know from experience tuning my nord engine that she likes to run a bit on the rich side below 3000 rpm, over that and its fine. Run her too lean and she kicks and bucks, especially on the rundown.
And there's no way you can get it run anywhere near stoichiometric mixes at idle, but I did notice some improvement in this when I went to multispark edis.

Still, I get 7.5L/100klm (37imp/32US) cruising at 110kph on the highway so its not too bad for a 2L. Obviously the TS with its better top end design would do even better.

If she were ever to throw a rod or something I think I'd have to consider a TS... or V6

[Biba69]

Not sure if this is the best place to post this, but thought I'd give it a try. Even though I have a freshly rebuilt Nord engine in my Alfetta GT, I'm not totally happy with it. Since I have a Twin Spark I'm toying with the idea of installing it, but to (hopefully) simplify the job, install the 40 DCOE's from the Alfetta. I would also get a Steck (or?) single distributor to replace the dual ones. I'm assuming the carbs might need rejetting, if so any suggestions? Yes, I know, most everyone goes with 45's but I'm trying to do this on a tight budget.

My first and perhaps most major hurdle is to see if I can get the TS installed without needing to cut the underside of the hood/bonnet. I'd start with seeing if the engine mounts can be lowered - or lowered enough - to achieve this. However, I am concerned this might upset the driveshaft.

After I got it running, I would then consider installing the Motronic system unless I'm happy with the carb arrangement. Question: This is really naive on my part, but how to those using carbs handle the ignition advance?

Biba

[rafael]

I have seen an alfetta GT 2000, with a nicely installed twin spark. No changes to the bonnet.

[Biba69]

rafael, thanks for replying. When you said GT 2000, was it the coupe? Did you by any chance specifically look at the center hood reinforcement, just where the front of the TS comes 'very close' to the hood? I don't suppose the owner made any comment about how he managed to lower the TS enough so that it didnt hit?

In any event, assuming it was the coupe, that is good news - meaning it is possible to do.

Biba

[rafael]

Biba,

Yes it was the coupe (alfetta GTV), european version with 2000 nord engine. Now it had the TS engine. It is in a garage near by. Next time I go there, I will ask about clearance issues (if any)

[iachella]

It seems that only two of us have had problems with the hood clearance. The other guy is named Clark. It's been a while since I've posted on that thread or this, so maybe he's cured the problem. I think it had to do with the engine mounts. I used new ones and when I was setting the engine down on them, I had a hard time lining the studs up with the holes. It seemed almost like the mounts were a little too tall, placing them further appart at the base. Maybe the holes that mount to the studs on the block can be reamed out so the engine can slide down in them a bit. That is if you were so unlucky as to have some mounts that were too tall.

I've made some exhaust changes to the Alfetta TS so now would be a good time to update the thread. I think all my complaints have been exhaust related. I had a guy completely redo my exhaust system. We got the new Euro downpipes from Centerline. We trimmed them up about 1/2" (1 cm) for ground clearance. We retained the front resonator that came with it. We put a straight through pipe inside the cat, so it looks like there is a cat. We went stainless steel 2" all the way back with a Maganflow center and rear; straight through mufflers.

The results are awesome. No hesitation anywhere in the rev range. My 'off the cluch' problem is gone. This is the performance I've been waiting for. My lesson to all who are doing the install is make sure your exhaust system is not clogged or restriced in any way.

[Biba69]

rafael, thanks for replying. If you do talk to the owner of the GT with the TS, please ask him if he had any clearance issues.

Stefano, I'm glad to hear you've finally worked out all of the bugs in your GT/TS. It sounds as if it is a Lot of Fun. Regarding the exhaust: Does the one for the Alfetta GT bolt right up, or is it absolutely necessary to shorten the downpipes I/2"? I have a NOS (Euro) front and center Ansa exhaust - though the rear Ansa section has quite a few miles on it. With the Nord, it tucks up pretty well. I might have mentioned it, but I had flanges welded on so that the three section all unbolt. I've already had it off once and will so again once I find time to install my transaxle with the lightened gears in the tranny. Sure saves time and the hassle of banging the sections apart.

I'm sure you researched out the TS install before going ahead with it. Did you ever consider carbs? I know diddly about electronics and feel if I can get the TS in fairly quickly, the 40 DCOE carbs might be the quickest way to get it up and running.

The engine mounts are the same for both the Alfetta and 75/TS aren't they? Thanks for the tip about reaming out the stud holes on the mounts. Where did you get yours? My fairly fresh ones came from Centerline. My thinking is to just plan on spending the time necessary to do an install of the TS, see if the hood closes, then go from there. I definitely want some extra room for the rocking of the engine - though assume the TS might not rock as much as the Nord.

If the 40 DCOE's will work - no offense - but then I can have a nice Euro air filter, rather than The Cone.

Biba

[iachella]

The Euro downpipes bolt right up to the TS manifolds, as they do with the Euro Alfetta manifolds. My Euro downpipes have been bashed on the bottom for some time and when I saw that Centerline was now carrying them, I felt I had to replace them. And why not shorten them a tad just to prevent future bashing. Everyone says the Alfettas are notorious for bashing the downpipes. When I was playing arround with some Shankle headers years ago, they were always scraping. I had a guy shorten up the downpipes and tuck them nicely up and they never touched the ground. So I knew it was possible.

I never considered carbs. I tuned carbs briefly on my first car. I bought Pat Bradens Weber book the day it came out in the 80's and drooled over the pictures. Once I read the techical specs of Spica from Alfas tech letters to the EPA and from the Spica tech notes put together by AROC, I felt they needed to be preserved and would never even swap Spica for Webers. To tell you the truth, I briefly considered adapting Spica to the TS, but abandoned that idea shortly after. No, this engine is awesome with the stock EFI and the only thing I'll do with it in its stock form is swap out the AFM for a MAF and do some remapping of the air intake curve. Also, if you remember from the smog discussion, the carbs would never pass the visual. EFI I still think I can get the visual looking right. That is my next task now that the exhaust is fine and it's behaving very well.

Considering the engine mounts, mine were from Centerline or IAP I don't remember which. I think it's just the luck of the draw. Either they are a little taller, or they are stiffer and don't sink down as much. Who knows. Maybe they'll settle in and drop a little.