Alfa V6 into 73 Spider

[slyalfa]

hmm just looking at a flyer I had here a new Richmond 5speed is $2000 and $3000 for the 6speed
extra $1000 for one gear....
when I rebuilt my spider box it was $2000 and that was like 10 years ago. so that is what prices I had for a reference.
is it cheaper to do a spider box today??
and is the Richmond trany any good? (it just happend to be the one I had a price for)

$2000 for a nice 6speed Getrag seems good to me. The gas saved in one or 2 years would pay for it.

[adelspyder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slyalfa hmm just looking at a flyer I had here a new Richmond 5speed is $2000 and $3000 for the 6speed extra $1000 for one gear.... when I rebuilt my spider box it was $2000 and that was like 10 years ago. so that is what prices I had for a reference. is it cheaper to do a spider box today?? and is the Richmond trany any good? (it just happend to be the one I had a price for) $2000 for a nice 6speed Getrag seems good to me. The gas saved in one or 2 years would pay for it.

[adelspyder]

Well, what you are about to read would be one of the few instances that you’ll hear regarding adding weight to the Spider!

But for the weight of a pressed red brick (around 2 to 3 kilograms), this is a fairly small price to pay for an Electric Power Assisted Steering (EPAS) system.

Traditional power steering systems

Everyone knows about traditional hydraulic power assisted steering systems, which utilise engine power to drive hydraulics to provide the steering assist. And there’s no secret as to the weight of these systems (pump, hoses, fluids, steering racks), their complexity, and the engine power that they rob at all times. All of this just to minimise effort for parking and low speed manoeuvrers!

Traditional spider retrofit options have consisted fitting (or retrofitting) a power steering unit of a series 4 car (to the best of my understanding were never made for RHD cars) or fitment of a modified power steering rack (this requires extensive vehicle modifications and additional weight of box or steering rack, power steering pump and pipe work).

21st Century Solutions - EPAS

An alternative is to fit an EPAS system as fitted by Toyota, Suzuki and other European manufacturers to their compact cars. Unlike conventional hydraulic assistance, electric power assistance relies on the principle that torque produced by a “locked” electric motor is dependent on current supplied to it. Hence, by using appropriate sensor inputs (many of which are integral within the steering hardware), ECU and appropriate electric motor and hardware (all that can be sourced from an appropriate donor car) power assistance can be obtained (in this case, through to the steering column).

Advantages of electric over hydraulic power steering setups is that electric power steering is truly speed sensitive (as vehicle speed is a sensor input to the ECU) and that electric power is only required when steering assistance is required - unlike hydraulic pumps which operate whenever the engine is running.

Other advantages include greatly reduced weight over existing PAS setups, remote fitment out of the engine bay (more room for extractors) and that the electric motor has virtually no torque drag - so in the event of electric assistance failure, the steering will behave as non power assisted setup (unlike hydraulic counterparts).

Fitting EPAS to the Spider

So far fitment has been relatively straight forward - an adaptor was made to mount the electric power steering motor to the top of the steering tube (motor has 2 threaded bolt holes on the base to hold the lower bearing so the adaptor serves a duel purpose). As the diameter of power steering output shaft is such the inner diameter of factory steering tube (worm shaft) could be splined to directly to it.

The top the factory aluminium mount was cut down and the inner diameter turned true. This allowed for fitment of a hard plastic sleeve between the top tube and the top of the electric power steering unit (where the original energy absorbing plastic sleeve was fitted), and fitment of a bearing at the top between the aluminium tube and the steering shaft.

Still to complete, is the adaptation of the top steering shaft to the power steering unit (relatively minor turning and welding operation – as it turns out the factory power steering lock recess locates pretty much with factory Alfa lock recess), fitment of a slip ring horn contact assembly and fabrication of firewall to steering column top support metalwork.

For vehicle speed, an “in line” electric speed sensor (as used in may aftermarket cruise control units), will be fitted. Additionally, an adjustable digital speedo correction kit (available in kit form for about $50 AUD) can be used to tune the speed assistance, as the signal input can be altered to “trick” the steering ECU into thinking that car is faster or slower that it actually is, allowing adjustments to be made as to when the power assist will reduce (and stop) relative to vehicle speed.

The photo below shows an exploded view of the steering column, and where the EPAS unit will be positioned. I'll post some more photos shortly of it all fitted under the dashboard.

[slyalfa]

sounds cool. the spider seems easy to turn as is. but use this with a fast rack or one the the gear boxes that that speed things up




2:1 box

[dzine]

I really hope you dont lose all your steering feel with the electric unit. This is the most common complaint about electric vs hydraulic, and is why it really has only been used in smaller, compact cars, where people dont care.

[slyalfa]

In-Line Stealth Steering Speeder/Reducer

it is a small gearbox to speed up the steering. That one is a 2:1 so for every turn of the wheel it will turn it 2 times at the box.
flip it and it will work the other way 2 turns of the wheel will = one turn at the box.

[adelspyder]

Boy, the last post on the Electric Power Steering has generated some interest in both the thread and in PM’s – so here are some more details for those who want to know more:

For further background reading of EPS and how they work:
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_0484/article.html

Some people have missed one main point re. EPS systems, regarding the lightness of the steering as fitted to some compact cars. While the majority of these compact cars have “dead” steering response to suit city driving, the reverse is actually true of EPAS systems. Unlike traditional hydraulic PAS setups, you can actually adjust the level of power assist in EPS cars to give whatever weight you desire (as per the following links):
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2390/article.html
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1297/article.html
http://www.motorsportads.co.uk/car-p...nics/6757.html

And finally, for those who are looking for information re. EPAS kits:
http://www.wiringlooms.com/EPAS.aspx
(I think that the company has distributors in the US and Australia as well). Note that while the weights vary from 5.5 to 8kgs, this is not only the EPAS unit, but part of the steering column assembly as well.

The unit to be fitted to the car is sourced from a Holden Cruze / Chevrolet Cruz / Suzuki (I think Ignis?). These cars weigh around 1000kgs new (within 50kgs of the Alfa Spyder weight, and from a 4WD with similar width tyres as well).

And once again, Slyalfa has lived up to his name regarding what he would do to the steering response if he had power assisted steering…….are you sure you don’t read minds???

Here’s another photo of how it fits neatly under the dashboard:

[slyalfa]

they are sold every where google them Sterring Quickeners


http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...0+115&x=27&y=6

[slyalfa]

ouch! the kits are $$$$

$4,000 to $6,000
at www.flamingriver.com

[adelspyder]

Slyalfa,

I heard the prices on the US electric power steering kit....

May I suggest that some shopping around??????


Dino

[adelspyder]

Okay Slyalfa...you evil fox ...you thinking process was EXACTLY the same as my brothers.....if you had power steering, why not make the most of it......

My brother gave me the following commentary this afternoon:


Further steering modifications

Another added benefit is that the EPAS system has also allowed for the fitment of quick ratio steering arms (increased steering response – fewer turns lock to lock). The quick ratio steering arms have been modified as many "quick ratio" arms are made for an extremely lowered car (does not give appropriate Ackerman angles for a standard height car). Consequently, the arms were made with a “bend” more similar to the original arms.

This has not been without its problems, as this resulted in fouling of the Koni front shock absorbers (all aftermarket units are made with the oil reservoir at the bottom – diameter at base 30 to 40 mm, whilst the genuine Alfa units are made with the oil reservoir on top – bottom diameter is about 15 to 20 mm).

This was overcome by modifying a set of mono-tube shock absorbers (Bilsteins) so that they could be fitted upside-down as the factory made them! (and a BIG thums up to the Qld Bilstein dealer for their knowledge and help in doing this for me!).

Picture #1 shows a top perspective of the front shocker shaft and the short steering arms: At full lock, distance between shaft and arm is approximately 12 to 15 mm. With aftermarket shockers, fouling of the oil reservoir was observed.

Picture #2 shows the factory shocks, Koni Reds and the Bilsteins!

[adelspyder]

Hi everyone,

Well, a new month, so it makes sense to include an update to the thread!

As mentioned in the first post, the overall concept was to try and install the V6 as cleanly as possible, trying to retain the original setup where possible. So far, the posts show the slanted engine and the use of the standard transmission mounted in the same position as per the original, meaning that the remainder of the drivetrain could remain standard.

But the thinking is to try and upgrade the rear suspension with a deDion setup, trying to replicate the Alfa Sei’s rear end (as per picture at the bottom of the post)

The plan is to try and source a deDion setup locally, and to try and locate an Alfa Sei difrerential (preferably a 3.63 auto or a 3.83 diesel ratio). I have potentially located a diff, however it has a different set of ratios. So if anyone could help source any diff with the above-mentioned gears (or even tell me what the diff gears came from), this would be a great help.

The reason for going this route is that while the entire setup would add around 5~10kg (11~22 pounds) overall to the car, using the Sei diff would remove around 50kgs (110 pounds) from the car’s existing unsprung mass and adds 55~60kgs (120~130 pounds) to the car’s sprung mass. The DeDion and the watts link setup would also lower the rear roll centre by around 4 inches, so this too should improve on the existing setup.

Setup correctly, the goal is to try and improve both straight line traction and overall handling, something which will be sorely needed with the power of the V6.

So if any of you could help in locating the Alfa Sei diff (or provide any info on the crown and pinion gears), or have any info on how to perform a similar installation, this would be a greatly appreciated.

All the best,

Dino

[streetfame]

Dino,

Talk to Santo or Anthony at AR Racing about gearing options....
Site: www.ar-racingproducts.com
E-mail: anthony@alfastuff.com
Contact: (818) 701-1614

Santo took care of me with their close-ratio tranny gears.

streetfame

[adelspyder]

SF,

Thanks for the contact details (I reckon that I've emailed around 10 people in the last month to source either the diff or the gears in the last month)! An email has been promptly sent to Anthony, so we'll see what comes up!

By the way, their website address doesn't seem to work for me - anyone else have the same problem?

Dino

[streetfame]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adelspyder SF, Thanks for the contact details (I reckon that I've emailed around 10 people in the last month to source either the diff or the gears in the last month)! An email has been promptly sent to Anthony, so we'll see what comes up! By the way, their website address doesn't seem to work for me - anyone else have the same problem? Dino