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post #1 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-19-2010, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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Alfa Supercharged and turbocharged - Phase 2 - Refining the platform

OK, so for those who have been following the twincharge build you'll know that the engine is now running and I have lots of things I'd like to improve upon. For those who have not, and would like to get the exec summary, in a nut shell:

I decided to build a supercharged and turbocharged Alfetta GT, using the 8valve single spark NORD engine. I wanted a fast, period engined package that would work within the restraints of the dedion rear end (ie 450HP max).

The engine uses an SC14 supercharger from a Toyota 2liter straight six (Japan only) and a GT3540 turbo with a 1.06 rear end. There are too many mods to list, but the head is basically stock, the rods are Carrillo and the pistons JE forged. The design is my own, the fabrication is a mix of my and a few mates efforts. It's not a workshop cheque book racer...I'm just a enthusiast like the rest of you....and whilst it looks complicated the build in concept is not really at all.

The target Hp is 420Hp at the flywheel (more of a reliability limit), but the main aim is here is to have big Hp without sacrificing low down torque. The main use of the car is / will be hillclimbs and casual track days.

Currently the engine makes great torque down low. The Hp up top until recently has been dissapointing, and it turns out the reason for this was poor current supply leading to ignition breakdown. This has been very recently rectified. Prior to this, the best Hp seen was 180RwKw's (est 280Hp at flywheel) at 5500rpm with ignition breakdown and 25-30ish psi on street fuel. It was a dissapointing figure to say the least.

With the Alternator sorted and a larger battery on board, I will be looking to do some more tuning and obtain another Hp reading. Gut feel is it's up around 230RwKw's on pump fuel at 24psi and 7000rpm (or 350 flywheel hp). I'm aiming for 420Hp at the fywheel which would be about 270RwKW's. To be honest, without a monoliner, I think 350Hp at the flywheel will be the max Hp I can run, and even then....I am waiting for the cracked liner!

So that's where the engine is at. Now for Phase 2. Here's what I am planning (not over night by the way!).

0. Get back on the dyno for a tune and a baseline!!

1. New tubular sstrainless turbo manifold to incorporate the new 50mm wastegate (just purchased and shown below). This manifold will also be incorporating temp and pressure sensing as well as the 4wire heated O2 sensor already in use. Purpose is to improve wastegate boost control...currently 38mm turbosmart is not up to the job and the manifold ID is 33mm or so so larger is required.

2. 3inch Exhaust over the rear

3. A lift in the front suspension and a lower rear spring (get the car levelled up)

4. Custom inlet manifold with larger runners and single 3inch butterfly.

5. A mono liner - most likely from Jim Steck...anyone know how to contact him? I've tried his forum name but no response.

6. some more cam fiddling.

7. What ever else crops up that needs sorting!

I'll be putting photos up ot document the mods, along with videos frmo time to time. Any input and suggestions, as always, will be happily discussed / debated on this thread.

Cheers

Mike
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Last edited by buzzed; 11-19-2010 at 05:21 PM. Reason: more pics
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post #2 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-19-2010, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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And one pic of the engine layout as it stands now.
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post #3 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-19-2010, 05:55 PM
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This is Jim's web site Autocomponenti

Great project . WOW !


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post #4 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-19-2010, 07:18 PM
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A properly ported head would be a great idea, but keep the port area's relative to valve sizes (no stupid big ports that kill velocity).
I know the 'relationship' went pare shaped, but Alfa7 has posted some very useful tips on here about valve and seat dimensions. They look the business and would be my choice if I was doing something similar with an Alfa engine.

Capacitive discharge ignition and experiment with plug gaps to try and get the biggest gap you can.

Glad to see you are going new inlet manifold. After seeing those pictures of 1 posted by someone else (sorry ), I was amazed at your choice (apart from port alignment, built in injector mounts and other trivial conveniences ).
Perhaps your new manifold could incorporate a water to air intercooler core to cool the post SC air???
Inlet runner length on a PD SC engine is an interesting thing. The 4AGZE inlet manifold looks a lot like a single carby manifold, but is REALLY cr@p in execution.
The 1 I've built, but am still yet to test is a long primary design (with a 'weird', divided 1&4-2&3 plenum chamber and I actually reduced the port area (down to about the later 'small port' area) and used a smaller diameter runner that matches).
For its capacity, in standard form the low RPM torque was quite acceptable even before the SC clutch engaged (LED on the tacho). So the end results of this new design will be interesting, but very subjective as my car has never been on a dyno.

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post #5 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-20-2010, 02:39 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks 69Alfa for the compliment. I have seen Jim's websie, but have had no reply back from that either, I'm annoyed with myself as I used to have his phone number but I have lost it.

Duk, I can't quite follow what combination your engine is (was it the 4agze with supercharger and turbo?) or am I getting confused?

As for Richard, I've seen his port stuff, but personally I'd be just as happy to go with Vin Sharp, the last head he did for me was a work of art and worth every cent. In fact it's such a shame I sold the engine, but hey, it financed the twincharge so can't complain.

I know the Camira manifold is not much to look at, but it is doing a remarkable job. I could put a water cooler on the engine, but honestly, there's that much crap in the engine bay and so much elec-trickery on the car that I think I need to keep it simpel, not complicate it further.

I had another tune session tonight where I pushed it past 8000rpm, I actually had to be pretty carefull as I had disengauged the redline the thing just wants to keep revving...and making power...it truelly is a changed motor....dare I say it...I think it might be to quick...gasp....herecy!! I pulled a heap of ignition timing out as I felt the 25deg btdc was too much now I am getting much more Hp. So now I'm back at 19deg btdc at 8000rpm and 24psi.

True Duk, I should look at bigger spark plug gaps, Although I am currently running 0.9mm which is not to bad, and I don't seem to have any issues now I have current!!

Anyone on here have a template for the exhaust manifold on the 2liter engine....better yet, a drawing? Would save me pulling the turbo gear off just to measure up.

As for big port design Duk, from everything I have seen / read it seems to me that port velocity on a turbo engine is not a real big issue. Mind you, I am cautious about big ports purely from the fact that by removing metal you are reducing the stiffness of the head, and that could lead to head gasket issues....maybe. I do recall Jim Steck going for 45mm intake and 41mm exhaust, which would seem like a good place to start...maybe 1 more mm on intake. Vinnie puts 48mm valves on the intake,,mosters! You'd have to be mm perfect, best left him me thinks! I guess you get diminishing returns due to valve shrouding...but it must work, on NA just fine as Vin got serious Hp out of my motor..try 155Hp at the wheels, not bad for 8v NA motor.
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post #6 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-20-2010, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzed View Post
Duk, I can't quite follow what combination your engine is (was it the 4agze with supercharger and turbo?) or am I getting confused?
My bad, I haven't communicated properly what I have. It's an AW11 (first) model factory supercharged MR2 (*** import) that I added a turbo to. The original supercharger is still there. The turbo blows through an enlarged throttle body and into the SC (standard pulleys). The SC then feeds a slightly bigger, but still in a poo place air to air intercooler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzed View Post
As for Richard, I've seen his port stuff, but personally I'd be just as happy to go with Vin Sharp, the last head he did for me was a work of art and worth every cent. In fact it's such a shame I sold the engine, but hey, it financed the twincharge so can't complain.
That's excellent! If a local enthusiastic business owner like Vin is doing work that you believe is up to what you are trying to achieve, then they should be supported. I've bought from Vin in the past and enjoyed a 40+ minute phone call with him about Alfa suspension and (some how ) SPICA fuel injection on the Montreal engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzed View Post
I know the Camira manifold is not much to look at, but it is doing a remarkable job. I could put a water cooler on the engine, but honestly, there's that much crap in the engine bay and so much elec-trickery on the car that I think I need to keep it simpel, not complicate it further.
My concerns were for the change in internal diameters that I saw in some of the photo's (on the 'other person's' thread). Going from big to small is 1 thing, but going from small to big........

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzed View Post
True Duk, I should look at bigger spark plug gaps, Although I am currently running 0.9mm which is not to bad, and I don't seem to have any issues now I have current!!
"I read in a magazine...." Seriously, there was a great article in 'Zoom' some years ago about a built Skyline GTR that was under performing compared to an essentially identical car. Identical except for the HKS capacitive discharge ignition. Boost pressures were similar to yours and the improvements impressive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzed View Post
As for big port design Duk, from everything I have seen / read it seems to me that port velocity on a turbo engine is not a real big issue. Mind you, I am cautious about big ports purely from the fact that by removing metal you are reducing the stiffness of the head, and that could lead to head gasket issues....maybe. I do recall Jim Steck going for 45mm intake and 41mm exhaust, which would seem like a good place to start...maybe 1 more mm on intake. Vinnie puts 48mm valves on the intake,,mosters! You'd have to be mm perfect, best left him me thinks! I guess you get diminishing returns due to valve shrouding...but it must work, on NA just fine as Vin got serious Hp out of my motor..try 155Hp at the wheels, not bad for 8v NA motor.
Big ports with big valves are 1 thing. Big ports with under sized or impeded flow from shrouding is another. Again I can only offer what I've seen rather than directly measured myself, but the better performing head from the Toyota 4AG(Z)E heads is actually the smaller port version. Even with the 5 valve heads, of the 2 versions, it's the later, smaller port version that works the best. It is a little irrelevant tho, as I am talking about smaller capacity engines with larger valve CSA, but the/my theory is that there is no point in trying to make the port flow any more than the valve can actually let through.
PolyQuad - A new four valve power concept (website has gone to the sh!t house) talks about a full blown Mitsubishi (16 valve) drag engine (827RWHP) where head porter David Vizard 'felt' that even the small port version was to big.
Sorry to harp on about it, just felt it needed to be mentioned.

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post #7 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-20-2010, 05:23 AM
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Buzzed maybe this is what you need .
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post #8 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-20-2010, 06:25 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
My bad, I haven't communicated properly what I have. It's an AW11 (first) model factory supercharged MR2 (*** import) that I added a turbo to. The original supercharger is still there. The turbo blows through an enlarged throttle body and into the SC (standard pulleys). The SC then feeds a slightly bigger, but still in a poo place air to air intercooler.
Thought so but was not sure I had the right person! Not a lot of room in the MR2 engine bay!

Quote:
I've bought from Vin in the past and enjoyed a 40+ minute phone call with him about Alfa suspension and (some how ) SPICA fuel injection on the Montreal engines
He's a good bloke and knowledgable to boot.

Quote:
My concerns were for the change in internal diameters that I saw in some of the photo's (on the 'other person's' thread). Going from big to small is 1 thing, but going from small to big........
Point taken, it may imrove things, but it's not really as bad as you might imagine, Through the 15mm base plate I have match ported the inlet to head. It could be better, but I assure you there are no nasty steps.

Quote:
Identical except for the HKS capacitive discharge ignition. Boost pressures were similar to yours and the improvements impressive.
Zoom used to be a good magazine, sadly now it is a parts list. I remain suspicious of any article that uses brand names to 'proove a point'. Someones always got an angle. It's also dependant on fuel being used etc, but hey, I can't see it being worse....but maybe 1500 bucks for not much.

After my drive tonight I am convinced I have enough Hp, and that my aim now should be to make the same Hp at lower boost levels, and so improving reliability. I think the above mentioned mods are still applicable, but I think I will add to the list, further drivetrain mods to improve drivability and relaibility. I plan to make a donut mod reccomended to me by MD. That will do away with any donut breakages due to gorrlilla snot aftermarket/old stock Alfa donuts. I will also look at installing an oil cooler on the twinspark rear end.

Quote:
Big ports with big valves are 1 thing. Big ports with under sized or impeded flow from shrouding is another.
Agreed, the aim is to find the next weekest link and improve it, hence moving on to the next. If you 'fix' a bunch of things and the weak link is still there, you've achieved little.

69Alfa....I am learning to like you already, I've sent them an email just now...I never knew they were making these. It looks very much like Jim Stecks design, which is a good thing. Their price is very reasonable given all the extra work they undertake.

Hmm time for sweet monoliner dreams! Cheers
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post #9 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-20-2010, 06:09 PM
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Jim Steck can be hard to reach sometimes . Max at Alfaholics I have never had a problem with.


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post #10 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-20-2010, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, he's probably busy beating world records...my kind of guy :-) !

I look foward to hearing back from max then.

You know, it amazes me that the NORD engine is capable of withstanding more than double stock power with little more than forged pistons!...OK maybe for short bursts, but I did take it for a punt up through the twisties on some steep inclines and the temp never budged...although I am sure under bonnet temps get up there....Gotta get that bonnet vented!
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post #11 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-25-2010, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Well I've had some good progress lately.

1. Exhaust

I've gone through a few iterations on the exuast side of things and landed on a twin 2.25inch system from under the firwall up over the axles and then merging back into a 3inch LONG magnaflow muffler....this baby.

http://www.bestmufflers.com/bshop/po...4b41f2e2ef3cca

The setup has been designed to keep a minimum of 3inch diameter cross sectinola area equivalent. The unfortunate thing is that 2.25inch is not a standard industrial bend in stainless (304 grade) so its 40 dollars per bend...where as 2.5inch is 20 dollars...DOH!

We are having a look at the car this weekend to see if the exhaust I have drawn up in cad will work in real life prior to buying the parts. Will also scavenge what I can from the shed to keep cost down.

2. Turbo manifold

So far I am halfway through my cad model of the manifold. I now have the flange and a couple of runners drawn up to give me a good fell for how it will all look. I acutally need to pull the turbo delta manifold off the car in order to measure it up as I would like this manifold to be a direct replacement for the turbo delta manifold...just with much larger ports. If anyone took any interest in having copies made, I would put more effort into making the drawing manufacturable...would save people a lot of money at a fab shop.

3. Lowered rear springs.

Vin from Pace has sent me a set of lowered rear springs uprated suitably...actually i went with what he specced and to be honest can not recall the reccomendation! Anyway, that should get the ride height level.

4. It's oil change time, so in with more Penrite HPR30 20W-60 mineral oil. Oil filter is Z89A. Filter was a reccomendation from Vin Sharp way back as he noted it has better flow than other filters. It 'just' fits on a oil cooler sandwhich plate in an Alfetta GT engine bay....just.

5. Monoliner

Suppliers:

Alfaholics
Jim Steck
Vin Sharp
Benincas
Autodelta


AlfaHolics have been great and since I simply can not get ahold of Jim Steck, I think I will go with this mob. Their service has been excellent. I also like the fact that their kit comes with new head studs. I like the closed deck design for my purposes. Structurally, I feel this is better than a open deck monoliner, and since I am really pushing the poor old motor, better stiffness is the main aim. The only thing then that i would like to look into is a bearing girdle, but I think this is something I can make up myself in due course.....add it to the list

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Cheers
Mike

Last edited by buzzed; 11-25-2010 at 06:14 PM.
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post #12 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-25-2010, 09:10 PM
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Hi Mike,
good to hear you making progress, is the manifold going to be equal lenght??
also, did you get a chance to email me a copy of the flange?
cheers, Brad

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post #13 of 1050 (permalink) Old 11-26-2010, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, equal length. Have not sent drawing yet, as need to dummy fit template to engine to make sure I am not sending you crap. It's drawn, and I have the template, so plan to fit it tommorow.
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post #14 of 1050 (permalink) Old 12-02-2010, 05:06 AM Thread Starter
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Quick update, a few pics to follow when I have time to throw up.

The exhaust is now designed, and parts ordered. I messed around with all sorts of combinations but have still landed on 3inch into 2*2 1/4 inch joining back up behind the gearbox prior to going into a 560mm magnaflow can at the rear (it fits...just). It's all 304 stainless steel and madrel bends. I moved from two flex joints in the 2 1/4 system to one verticle flex joint in the turbo dump pipe. I figure vertical is going to do more for me when the car bottoms out on the pipes. Plus it gives some more valuable ground clearance...Alfa what were you thinking??! Cars need exhausts, bad out of the factory, worse when lowered!

The can has turned up and it's a whopper! Ought to shut the car up a bit.

The rear springs turned up from Pace...they certainly look lower than the ones I am currently running...will aim to get them in this weekend so exhausts clearnaces can be worked out when the rest of the system turns up.

I'm still drawing up the new turbo exhaust manifold, but this will take some time as I am doing some reading on design options. I have moved from stainless steel to steam pipe bends. I just can't justify the poor crack resistance and heat dissapation of ss....and cost for no good reason other than sexy welds. I just plan to linish the system and ceramic coat inside and out. I would like to run a split system to reduce back pressure on opposing cylinders, so might look at making a splitter to mount inside the turbo manifold as I may as well buy a new turbo if I go for split turbine manifold....1700 new turbo...1200 for the turbine housing alone! Not going there.

I've started on the inlet manifold design today. Lots of things to decide on, like throttle body, volume, runnner diameter & length etc. I'll play around and see what I can come up with.

Anyway, i'm hopefull of being able to get the exhaust together before Christmas, so am really looking forward to the result..hopefully a nice note with a lot less noise so my neighbours don't lynch me! Then I'm off on holiday for 3 weeks so not much will happen of the xmas break..other than in my head!

Photos soon...
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post #15 of 1050 (permalink) Old 12-04-2010, 04:07 AM Thread Starter
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I installed the springs today, I think they are a good compromise on the ride height side of things. The springs are 185 pound springs and car has dropped about 20mm from the previous springs (which were not standard). Free height of the springs was 320mm and wire is 13.5mm. I have not had it on the road yet but so far so good. The first rim shot is with the old springs and the next shot is with the lowered springs from Pace.
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Last edited by buzzed; 12-14-2010 at 06:17 PM.
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