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Old 10-06-2009, 12:30 AM
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Have seen those piccies too. It's a cool idea that (the way I'm seeing it) forces the air to turn to reach the inlet runners while reducing/elliminating any cylinder favouratism that (in my mind) most factory manifolds cause.
I believe the cosworth Seira's used a center entering plenum chamber with a single throttle body. While largely irrelivant here, they did achieve some huge numbers during the old Group A Touring Cars, back in the day.
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Old 10-06-2009, 03:14 AM
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ok so this is ruffley my design for the exhaust maifold, it will still be made form steam pipe and steel tubing but should do the job, i will look into getting a t28 turbo this week and also look for an intercooler.
is this what you mean by a plenum that tappers down towards the last inlet? im going to copy this design but make it a bit smaller,
cheers, brad
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Old 10-06-2009, 05:28 AM
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is this what you mean by a plenum that tappers down towards the last inlet?
Yes.

Most modern aftermarket turbo plenums have this basic shape, so it must work. There's some math involved to determine the volume you'd want, and even more complicated math to figure out the degree of the taper to equalize pressure for a given volume comming into the throttle body... but just reverse engineering from a similar HP, similar boost engine will probably get you 90% there.

As for the exhaust manifold...
you can make a merge-style collector similar to the pic you provided out of steam pipe. Also don't forget the turbo downpipe side... provide a good, merged exit for the wastegate flow.

George
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Old 10-06-2009, 02:27 PM
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ok so last night i was thinking i am going to go to all this trouble and there will be a very big risk that the engine will propbaly detonate so question is how to i controlle detonation and how do i lower the compresion ratio?,
does my machinest take a bit of the pistons? new rods? is there any other car pistons to use? keep in mind im on sort of a budget so dont want to go with forgies and ect..
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Old 10-06-2009, 07:40 PM
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i believe that a set of 75ts pistons should lower the ration to approx. 8:1, but dont quote me on that. pewrhaps you could read through some of buzzed' post http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engi...e-project.html

the best piece of advice i can give you in relation to designing anything that moves gas is pretend you're a peice of air, would you like to be moving fast and then come up to a sharp bend? the biggest possible radii is what i would use for each bend, smooth transition where possible. as a rule, in mechanical ventilation design, we use max 4:1 ratio for our transitions, nut you're dealing with an engine bay!

good luck with it
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:28 PM
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...so question is how to i controlle detonation ....
Since you're building an all-mechanical system (no sophisticated ignition mapping or boost contorllers), you've got a few well-established options:

Lower boost level.
Retard timing above a certain boost level.
Run the jetting richer than otherwise ideal for power. 10.5:1? 10:1?
Water injection that comes on at a certain boost level.

And, of course, keep the coolant temps and intake charge temps down... which you're addressing with a modern intercooler.

Also don't overlook the importance of a well-designed wastegate plumbing for optimal flow and fast response. A slow-responding wastegate can allow boost to creep up or spike at just the wrong moment, starting detonation.

On the plus side, you're building something that's been built before (carb turbo'd Nord engine), so you've got a working formula to follow. I'm sure others on the BB can find more technical details about the original Alfa turbo engines (ie compression ratio, boost level, ignition timing?).

One of the biggest dangers with a turbo car is getting addicted to the boosted engine response and always wanting a little bit more. It's hard to build a "moderate" turbo car and just leave it alone. You'll start creeping the boost level up and advancing the timing... and the engine will get better and better and then... something usually breaks. At least that way, you know what the failure mode is, and you'll know what part to spend more money on next time!

George
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:01 PM
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Don't let it detonate and don't over rev it and it will live. It sounds simplistic, but those are the big killers, so if you don't allow them to happen, then the old girl will die from wear and tear.
Obviously (as has been pointed out) controlling detonation will be the big achievement.

Your intended exhaust manifold design is good and will help keep combustion chamber temps as good as you can keep them (no excess back pressure).
If you have the option, maybe go for a .86 A/R ratio turbine housing. This will tend to bring boost on a bit further up the rev range, but the lower back pressure on the engine should also help keep combustion chamber temps down/less chance of detonation.

I would look at water injection as a must. It is a much more effective detonation supressant than excessively rich mixtures. It would be great if Greg Gordon chimed in here, he's experianced with water injection and has done much research on it's effectiveness having gone thru many NACA documents on the subject when he wrote his book on supercharging.

If you do insist on using a a purely mechanical ignition system, look at finding a boost retard distributor that you could make fit to your NORD engine and have recurved to suit your needs. I personally would go a Microprocessor controlled system as I mentioned in Storm-X's thread. To me it helps elliminate 1 of the big causes of drivabillity and detonation issues in carby-turbo set ups.
If you can get decent air/fuel ratios and still have detonation issues, then ignition timing will be your engines saviour. You must have control of your ignition timing.

Also, I would only look at machined or different pistons if your engine is in pieces already unless you are higher than 9:1 compression ratio to begin with.
I would reccomend that you make absolutely sure that your valve guides and valve stem seals are in top condition, especially on the inlet valves. Oil in the combustion chamber has an octane reducing effect on the fuel. It also leaves carbon deposits inside the combustion chamber that can be hot enough to ignite the air/fuel mix.
Water injection has a nice combustion chamber cleaning effect as every combustion event that has some water in it, the chamber/piston crown get a nice little steam clean.
Same said for crank case ventilation. It must be as effective as possible and either vent into an (illegal) atmosphere venting catch can or have very effective oil mist trapping baffles. I made 1 that was full of stainless steel pot cleaners to litterally scrub the oil from the blow by gas.
Really good ring seal from a propper run in (not some namby pamby 'treat it like a little girl' run in ) will be the best way to prevent blow by from occuring.
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Last edited by Duk; 10-06-2009 at 11:19 PM. Reason: There was this 1 time, at band camp......
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:07 AM
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to use this i can only use it as a stand alone right? (as u said on stormXs thread)
Programmable High Energy Ignition System - Jaycar Electronics.
how does this work? does it replace my dizzy or it works with it?
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradGTV View Post
to use this i can only use it as a stand alone right? (as u said on stormXs thread)
Programmable High Energy Ignition System - Jaycar Electronics.
how does this work? does it replace my dizzy or it works with it?
The distributor remains, as does the trigger input (points in an Alfa's case) but the advance mechanism must be locked solid. The controller does all of the ignition timing duties. It requires a MAP sensor that can measure boost pressure to determin the engine load.
The biggest advantage is the fact that it is both user programmable (to suit your engine) and has a decent 15 x 15 rev/load map.
What I also see as a huge advantage is the fact that it can be set up on a dyno in real time. Hold at a rev/load point and achieve the best ignition angle without detonation or torque drop off (passed the point of peek torque for that point with to much ignition advance without detonation, typically low load.)
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:19 PM
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wow sounds like a good invention. i will invest in one of these soon.
also is there a way to controlle boost levels from inside the car?
cheers, brad
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Old 10-08-2009, 01:38 AM
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with the plenum do i need a throttle body or not (becasue of the carbies)?
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:06 AM
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u can use a manual boost controller. im planing to use a dual stage 1 for princess and 2 for a little fun.

no throttle body needed as the carbies allready have 4 butterflys if u get what u mean. i was also planing to get a plenum made up i have got the ally allready cut up but its just where all the holes etc go. i think i might just buy one.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:05 PM
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yer i thought i didnt need a throttle bodie but couldnt think of the name for the 'butterflys' i will propbaly make my plenum for steel and powder coat it black or silver, i do this casuse i can weld it as i cant weld aluminium.
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Old 10-08-2009, 08:11 PM
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steel is heavy. trust me i got 3m steel cut at a welding place i used to work at over a year ago .coz i knew it was going to be easy to weld steel but all the steel was so fkn heavy it was just way to heavy. i asked if he could recut it out of 1.6 but there ally welder is running a treat now so im getting it made out of 3mm sheet.
the only thing is i wanted to weld bolts inthrought the plenum to bolt up to the carbies but u cant weld ally to steel.i was just thinking about using a strong glue to seal then building up the weld over the top of the bolt over the nut and see if it was good or not.

i heard some one moded there stock air box to suit turbo but i reckon that wouldnt look the best.


hay i got an intercooler kit to suit sr20/ca18 here if u want to buy it. i tried to see if it would fit on my giulietta and it seems pretty close i cant tell for sure tho untill the plenum/turbo and intercooler are in there then cut the pipes and get a thew silicone joiners.


hay brad where in adelaide u live ?
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Old 10-08-2009, 11:27 PM
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hey storm is the kit including intercooler? how much you want?
yer i thought it would be to heavy. do u know how much ruffley they would charge to get a plenum fully wleded?
im in salisbury heights wbu?
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