Alternator

[Alex Csank]

Just remove the air intake and the battery and tray (if you have one. It's a bit tight with the fan there, but once the belt is off, you can turn the fan so the blades don't get in your way. It will take a bit of finger bashing to do it, but you can manage, as long as the engine is cold.

Regarding the idea of connecting the new alternator to a fully-charged battery...I think that's hogwash!

Cheers,

[acurtiss]

Well after a few extra trips to the parts store and quite a bit of lost skin on my knuckles (the fan shroud is in just the wrong place), I was able to get the old generator off and the new alternator on.

Removing the air intake was not a problem. But the battery tray, on my car at least, is welded onto the body. So there was no getting around that. I did bend it back a ways when wiggling the alternator in between it and the rest of the hardware in that area (it's tight). I also had to unfasten the fan shroud in order to more easily thread the mounting bolt into the alternator.

I used a longish GM starter bolt, and two washers between the alternator flange and the block in order to space the pulleys correctly.

I used a Dayco 35315 belt instead of the 35310 -- there is a useless little lip that protrudes out of the water pump that perfectly blocked the flange where the alt bolt would go on the alternator. The extra half inch was all that was needed, and while it's at about full extension on the bracket it seems to be the right tension.

Once it was all installed I connected blue to blue (D+ to 61 / dash light wire) and black to red (DF to Battery +), hooked up the battery (which I had charged just for good measure), and started her up. Happily, voltage now read 14.3 at the battery at about 3000 rpms. The only immediately negative thing was that the generator light on the dash was not lighting at very low rpms.

I let it run for a while, drove around the neighborhood, etc., then parked and checked battery voltage again with the ignition off. It read a happy enough 12.7.

Now, the real bad news. A few hours later I went back out to the car and tried to start -- nothing. There was no juice at all. I checked the battery disconnected and it is reading low, less than 10v. With the ground wire connected, it drains at a pretty fast rate. If I remove the black wire from the alternator, it stops draining. Now it appears I have a short somewhere, or else I've hooked something up incorrectly...? The dash light would seem to indicate something is out of wack, but I'm not sure where to start looking.

Any ideas at this point are most welcome.

Aaron

[papajam]

Good show getting the alternator installed and charging the battery!
Charging light; does the light come with key on and engine off? Does the light then go off when the engine is running? If so, that's the benefit of an alternator - some can produce more power at idle than some gennys can at full song!
What kind and approx year alt did you install (Bosch, GM, etc.).

[acurtiss]

I sort of hoped the dash light was the result of a really strong charge coming even at idle, but unfortunately the light is not coming on at all even when the car is not running and the ignition is on. On the bright side, so to speak, the battery is getting charged...

The alternator is a reman of a 90-94 Spider alternator from the site mentioned in one of the earlier posts to this thread. ($83 shipped!) It has one screw post for the blue wire, and a spade terminal for the black wire. The voltage regulator appears to be mounted directly to the back of the unit -- a white gizmo with a small black box on top, spreading across maybe 3 inches and bolted at either side.

Further diagnosis today revealed nothing new: the battery loses charge very rapidly if it is connected to the car's system with the engine off. It maintains a charge just fine if disconnected, so I know the battery is ok. I have one of those battery cut-off devices so I'm just disconnecting it every time.

I'm feeling around in the dark now in terms of understanding what might be the cause of this problem, and I'm hoping it wasn't the alternator I just installed. Would it be possible for an alternator to acutally drain power from a battery?

At the fuse box, fuses 3, 4, and 5 (from left) are 'live' at full voltage; all the others are at 0.00 with the ignition off. Is this right? It makes sense, but I'm not sure I'm deciphering the electrical diagram quite right.

I'm not done yet, but thanks for the encouragement and all the help.

Aaron

[acurtiss]

I figured out what I did wrong -- the chart on this page
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/d...37/duealt.html
showed me that blue (D+) does NOT go to blue (61), it goes to red (B+). And black (DF) goes to blue (61). My girlfriend wouldn't have made this mistake. I'm just glad I didn't fry my wiring in the meantime.

So now, the dinamo light comes on at idle (I'm happy to see it there), goes off at about 1200 rpms. In an hour or two I'll find out if I'm still losing a charge, but I suspect this was the culprit all along.

Aaron

[papajam]

Well done, Aaron!!

Changing the dynamo light bulb to one of a different wattage will change the rpm at which the light comes on when the engine slows to down to idle speed (or speeds up to idle speed when started). Actually, the light shouldn't be on at all except with key on/engine off. Don't recall though if the bulbs wattage needs to go up or down.

[gvisconty]

Hmm. I just pulled my old alternator (73 GTV), and installed one from a '90 - '94 spider. I attached the B+ terminal to the Battery and attached the alt warning light to D+ terminal. The battery is at 12.2V with engine stopped, and 12.1V running, which doesn't seem right, but the alt warning light does go out once the engine starts. Any ideas what's wrong with this picture?

[dwc]

Just an educated guess, but it sounds like the new alternator is DOA. But, the alternator is initialy energized by voltage applied to the D+ terminal, so if that wire from the alternator light has a break, or if the bulb is burned out, that could cause the alternator to appear dead. Does the "generator" light still come on when you first turn on the key, before the engine is started? I know you mentioned that the light went out when you started the engine, but does it still come on with the engine stopped? If yes, then I'd say that pretty much says the alternator or regulator is defective.

Sometimes new brushes need some break-in before they contact the slip rings on the stator fully, but that seems like a more remote possibility. The regulator is simple to remove (just those 2 screws), if you want to have a look at the brushes. See that the brushes have some curvature worn into their ends, and that they move freely in their holders. Most auto parts stores have an alterantor tester, and will perform a test for free. That would be my next step. You really want to be seeing at least 13.5V+ output.

Regards,

Dean
Lutz, FL
'74 & '87 Spider Veloce's

[gvisconty]

I took the alternator out to inspect it, put it back in, and now it appears to be working. Either I had something plugged in wrong the first time (not much to get wrong, though), It needed the "break-in" that you mentioned (never heard of that before), or it was a measurement problem and it was actually working the entire time.

[dwc]

That's mysterious. Perhaps you left the belt off the first time?

Anyway, glad it's working now. I don't often get caught in the rain in my '74 Spider, but the first time I did, the bigger alternator sure made a difference. It's nice to be able to use the radio, lights, wipers and defroster, and still have some current left over to make some sparks for the engine.

In my '87 Spider, which has all kinds of ridiculous power accessories, I've also installed an adjustable voltage regulator, from Vick Autosports. I have the voltage set to ~14.5 volts, and now the power windows almost work at a reasonable speed. Also, many of the newer batteries need that extra voltage to get a full charge.

Regards,

Dean
Lutz, FL
'74 & '87 Spider Veloce's

[ACP]

I have an '89 Spider and it has two electrical quirks (among how many others lurking?):

1. On initial startup the voltmeter reads low - like 11V or less, until you rev the engine once and make it climb over 12.5 or so, and then it stays on the happy side of 12 for the remainder of the run. Also before revving it various warning lights stay on - none related directly to the charging system. I think they just stay on because the system hasn't registered that the car is actually running.

2. The heater fan, even at low speed, and the air conditioning (not that we use it) at any speed, cause the voltmeter to go to the bad side of 12. Car still runs, but I prefer not to run it this way!

3. Only visible at night, at highish rpm the alternator light is on very faintly.


So, you guys reckon I'm looking at a voltage regulator or alternator problem, both, or something else entirely??

Best, ACP

[John M]

1. Normal.

2. Check the heater fan motor for a good ground.

3. Faint alt light in an Alfa usually indicates either a poor connection or an alternator starting to go bad. Usually a poor connection. Check all the wire terminals located on the alternator and the driver's fender junction. This fender mounted junction (where the Alt red wire and battery wire connect) is a common site for poor connections due to corrosion of the wire terminals. Look for corroded wires within the terminals. Replace terminals as necessary.

Best Regards,
John M

[dwc]

I don't recall if I posted to here or the Alfa Digest the various improvements I've made to the electrical system of my '87 Spider Veloce. But, they're all pretty simple, inexpensive, and worked very well. Either way, here's what I did.

First, make sure your alternator/regulator are up to par. I decided to replace mine, at a cost of ~$85 for a very nice rebuilt unit, and for an extra $25 swapped the original regulator for one of Vick Autosports' adjustable regulators. So, now I've got a nice, strong 14.5V+ (about 1 volt higher than stock) at the B+ terminal of the alternator, but still the voltage at the dash gauge is weak, power windows, wipers, fan, etc., are all still slow. Next, check the battery and battery cables and terminals. Those Wal-Mart yellow batteries (forgot the name) are powerful and seem to last well, so for ~$55 I got the largest one that would fit in the trunk. The cables were OK, but the terminals were old, and NAPA had some nice crimp-on terminals that I bought and had installed there. They needed to be crimped onto the wires with a major-league hydraulically-assisted hand tool, but the NAPA machine shop did it for free while I waited. Still, the power stuff on the car, and gauge are a little weak.

Here's the big change. I replaced the B+ wire from the alternator to the power block on the inner fender with a new 8ga. piece. Also ran another 8ga. wire from that power block to the B+ terminal on the starter solenoid (parallel to the existing one), and replaced the third wire that runs from that power block to the fuse box with one more piece of 8ga. Now I've got the results I wanted. Wipers and fan are strong, lights are brighter, and the power window speed is almost OK (but never will be like the windows on a $300 beater '82 Ford, will they?). There is also a large 2-wire connector (1 red wire, 1 black) under the dash, near the steering column, that was dirty, and cleaning that helped, too. Same goes for the B+ terminal on the starter solenoid, as all the current that charges the battery passes through that connection, as does the current that runs the starter motor. That was one of the few terminals that I didn't replace, it just needed a good cleaning. Finally, check the grounding strap from the starter motor/bellhousing to the chassis, and clean/tighten all the connections.

The dash gauge now reads around 12.5V most of the time, which isn't quite accurate, but the main thing is that the voltage doesn't drop when I start turning stuff on. The trick is to eliminate all the things that are causing small voltage drops around the car.

On the topic of electrics on an L-Jet Spider, there are 2 fuse holders that I'll bet are toasted on most cars. One is in the engine bay near the distributor, and powers the VVT solenoid. The other is under the rear deck (passenger side), and it supplies the fuel pump. Both use those old-style ceramic fuses. Replace them with weatherproof ATC fuse holders, and leave the one for the fuel pump tucked under the front edge of the carpet rather than fully inder the deck. That way you can check/replace it without any tools.

As for your specific questions, the alt light staying on at start is fine, as sometimes it takes a few extra revs to get the alternator energized, and that's dependent on a few things, but mostly the wattage/resistance of the bulb in the dash. Fixing your car, as I described above, should cure your other ills, although Ive heard that the A/C is a major power drain, and mine is a non-A/C car, so I haven't seen that first-hand.

Regards,

Dean
Lutz, FL
'74 & '87 Spider Veloce's

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACP I have an '89 Spider and it has two electrical quirks (among how many others lurking?): 1. On initial startup the voltmeter reads low - like 11V or less, until you rev the engine once and make it climb over 12.5 or so, and then it stays on the happy side of 12 for the remainder of the run. Also before revving it various warning lights stay on - none related directly to the charging system. I think they just stay on because the system hasn't registered that the car is actually running. 2. The heater fan, even at low speed, and the air conditioning (not that we use it) at any speed, cause the voltmeter to go to the bad side of 12. Car still runs, but I prefer not to run it this way! 3. Only visible at night, at highish rpm the alternator light is on very faintly. So, you guys reckon I'm looking at a voltage regulator or alternator problem, both, or something else entirely?? Best, ACP