Starter "Button"

[Bill]

Somewhere in the past, a PO must have had problems with the starter switch and instead of replacing it, bypassed the switch to the starter terminals and installed a "button" under the wheel housing.

I have encountered this before in my '67 Rover 2000 TC, but that was factory, and typically British, and I kind of liked it. Turn the key, pump the gas and push the button. Kind of neat in its own way.

This button has served me well for these past 12 months until a few days ago. Now I find myself catching rides because the "button" is not functioning properly and it seems to be draining current.

I went to start the car Sunday morning and noticed no generator light or seatbelt reminder buzzer, and although the starter turned over, the engine did not fire. The button was not engaging on the push "in", but on the "release", and the starter was hanging at the same time. After a few attempts, I pulled the plugs and did a spark test and found a very weak, intermittent spark to the plugs.

I replaced the coil with a spare and got better spark and the engine caught but would not accelerate, and died. After a few attempts, all of which started the engine but would not accelerate, I pulled a plug and checked for spark- again a very weak intermittent spark.

By now the battery is dicharging and with head lights turned on , the starter will not turn much at all and the lights dim to nothing.

So, what do ya'll think?? Multiple problems involving bad grounds or a really messed up starting switch/button??
What should be the ohms across a coils +- terminals or +center? Could a button like this be causing a short in the system when off ( the button can engage the starter without the key being used; its live) Where do I really begin to check the ignition/starter system

[Roadtrip]

Bill -
Check your main grounds first. Battery ground and engine to body ground strap. A bad engine to body ground strap can result in the throttle cable taking the load, heating, and melting the casing.

If you're sure the battery is servicable but is discharging uncommanded, you'll need to narrow the leak down to an individual circuit. Use Papajam's wiring diagram and see if you can measure any current across the various circuits (via removing the fuses and measuring any leaking current).

I think the hillbilly-wiring of the starter button has got to go. If the key switch is bad, get a new one and wire it correctly. They're about $100. Maybe someone on the board has a repair procedure, but I don't know of any.

It's also probably a good idea to reroute the power supply of the SPICA Cold Start Solenoid to the output portion of the starter solenoid to take the load off the key switch and keep from robbing current from the starter solenoid. This is a common problem for SPICA cars. See the recent thread dealing specifically with that problem.

[Bill]

Ok,
I have removed the suspect "button", replaced the battery with new, checked across the fuse terminals ( no drain), checked timing, cam timing, point gap, and as many grounds as I can find.

Still a very eratic and weak spark ( not strong enough to ignite starter fluid). I have tried 3 seperate coils.

The starter spins the engine like a turbine, but still no start .
I did notice the generator light did not come on when key was first turned to on. Did come on while cranking.

Any ideas on what next.

[Roadtrip]

I'm assuming you have the stock Marelli distributor, correct?

1. Check voltage at the + terminal on the coil. The green wire on the + coil terminal goes to the fuse box, so should have 12 volts with the key "on."

2. Check the black wire going from the (-) term on the coil to the underside of the distributor. It connects to a spade terminal underneath the distributor base. Sometimes that connection can get corroded and loose.

3. Check for carbon tracking in the distributor cap.

4. I assume you did put the rotor back in, RIGHT!!!??? .. . . . . not that I'VE ever forgotten it and wondered why the car wouldn't start.

5. Check to be sure the springs on on the advance weights.

6. Spark plug wires are infamous for causing intermittent/strange problems. I just replaced my old wires due to an annoying miss that gradually got worse and worse. Smooth as silk now. The old ones looked great, but had hardened and I'm sure they were leaking like crazy. If you have another coil to distributor high tension wire, try replacing it and see if that makes any difference.

7. Do you have an induction-type timing light? If not, I'd recommend that you get one. It's great for seeing exactly how the plugs are firiing. In my recent case, I could see that the spark on the #4 cylinder was sparking erratically and a lot more than it should have.

[Bill]

Thanks John, I'll give it another going over this afternoon:

Quote:

I'm assuming you have the stock Marelli distributor, correct?

[Roadtrip]

Quote:

There are two green wires to the terminal...does it matter?

[Bill]

The coil does not have an "external" ballast resistor. (Bosch Blue coil). I believe it is internal and this would account for the two green wires.

This system on my '78 has been "modified" by PO's and does not follow the Electrical diagram of Papa. I cant even trace the wires to a relay!

Thanks again, and I will try to get in touch with Papajam.

[papajam]

I think the clue to this whole thing is "...and noticed no generator light or seatbelt reminder buzzer...". First things I'd check are A) fuse #6 blown or B) fuse #6 contacts are dirty.
We'll get to the coil wiring later.

[Bill]

Does anyone know where the Main ground strap from engine to body would be???
I have checked and replaced the alternator and battery as they were both "dead", and feel this may be because of poor ground.

I have checked or done all recommendations from ya'll and still not running.

I have not replaced the plug wiring, but have replaced the points, condensors and rotor. Cap looks fine with no tracking or corrosion.

I am able to start the car, sometimes, but there is no power on acceleration and the engine will stop on its own.

(I am about to hit the wall on my electrical knowledge and want to check all the grounds again before taking it to the "experts').

Thanks

[Roadtrip]

Bill -
The ground strap should be located on the right rear of the engine. Check it. As a troubleshooting measure, bypass the installed ground strap and just take one battery jumper cable and put one clamp on the engine and the other on the neg battery post and try again.

Again, you still haven't fixed that injection pump yet, right? By getting an initial start, then having the engine die and produce no power, AND knowing that the injection pump is walking wounded . . . . that leaves me to suspect that maybe your temp fix on the compensator link retaining spring may have expired and maybe causing some problems as well.

[Bill]

Can anyone identify these???

They are located under the dash on passenger side. The fuse wires are clipped and bypassed.
One of them "clicks" after the ignition switch is turned on for a few seconds.

I am still not getting 12 volts across the coil terminals even with the battery negative terminal being grounded to the engine with a booster cable. Do these relays relate/effect the ignition???

Thanks

[Bill]

Just to fill everyone in who was interested, involved or concerned,
Sophia is running again!!!

To make a long story short:

Replaced battery, alternator, ignition switch, coil, plugs and wires and checked cam timing, pump timing, and modified ignition timing, and she runs great!!

I believe I had a short in the ignition switch which kept current going to the coil, drained the battery, overloaded the alternator and fried the plug wires.

I was getting less than 6 volts to the coil when ign. switch was on and that really told the story.

Thanks for all of your recomendations, advice and help in this.
I know where to turn if (when) anything else happens in the future.