Replacing the starter on a 74 GTV??

[Zinhead]

I was going to replace the solenoid on my 74 GTV. However, IAP wants $91 for a new solenoid. The Bosch website, website lists the following as the correct starter for a 74 GTV:

SR84X Reman Starter w/Bosch; Small Case; 9-Tooth; 12V; Direct Drive; 0.7 KW; Clock-Wise Rotation

NAPA wants $139 for the remanufactured Bosch. NAPA also lists the Beck Arnley for $174 as being correct for this car.

http://www.napaonline.com/cgi-bin/nc...g=&org_string=

Any opinions if these are the correct parts?

The archives had some posts about the later Alfa starters having a different number of teeth from the earlier ones because of a change in the flywheel (mine's a 74).

I have never replaced a starter before. Are there any tricks or is it a straight ahead bolt-in, bolt-out operation?

[Roadtrip]

Review all previous posts again. I think the starters and flywheel ring gears changed in '75. If you go for a local store-bought part, take your old starter out and take it with you to match it up against the part they give you. Count the teeth on the starter's pinon. If they're not the same, it ain't the right one.

Upon reinstallation, the most important thing to remember is to use the special shoulder bolt in the MIDDLE position. If the bolt you have now is worn or crankshafted, get a new one from IAP. This is a special bolt, and you won't find it at the hardware store. If you don't install the shoulder bolt in the middle position, the starter will not have the correct ring gear clearance, will grind, and do damage.

When replacing the starter, it's a good time to take a close look at the battery cable. If it's buggered up at the battery post terminal, or the insulation is damaged, go ahead and replace it. Another good thing to do is (assuming your car is SPICA'd) to install a relay to energize the Cold Start Solenoid on the injection pump. This $5 relay might save an expensive ignition key switch from burning it's contacts.

[4sfed]

The first step in replacing a starter is removing the ground cable from the battery . . . may be obvious, but since you said this was your first time, I feel compelled offer my suggestions.

[Roadtrip]

Yes, not disconnecting the battery will make you future competitor for a Darwin Award.

[dwc]

Hi Zinhead:

Here's a great source for starters and alternators, Alfa or otherwise:

http://autoexpress.safeshopper.com/

I've got the later gear-reduction starters on both my Spider's, and sent one to them for a rebuild a few years ago. It came back like new, for ~$100, and it's one of tne nicest rebuilds I've ever seen. 3 year warranty, too.

Just one more thing, I'd avoid the larger 1.1hp starter, unless you've got the proper brace to fasten it to the motor mount on that side. I've seen quite a few 115's, before and after '75, with that starter, and just about as many cracked bellhousings over the years (my '74 Spider included). Use either the correct 0.7hp for your year, or one of the late gear-reduction starters.

Regards,

Dean
Lutz, FL
'74 & '87 Spider Veloce's

[vangos]

Does anybody know which year alfa switched to the gear-reduction type starters? Are those units typically smaller than the earlier ones? Is there an easy way to tell them apart? I need one that will work with my 73 gtv.

The website from Dean's post lists a starter for 86-94 spiders. I was under the impression that the gear-reduction starters were only available on the latest generation of spiders.

Thanks,
Vangelis

[dwc]

Hi Vangelis:

There are actually two different gear-reduction starters. One was fitted from '86 - '89 (L-jet), and the other from '90 - '94 (Motronic). The Motronic cars have the same type flywheel as the '72 - '74 2 liters, while the '75 - 85 cars all have the same type flywheel. The difference is in the number of teeth, 131 v. 130. So, on your GTV, you're supposed to use a '90 - '94 Motronic starter, or the original 0.7.

Having said all that, I've never had any trouble using any year starter on any 2-liter car. And, many others have had the same success, such as using the 1.1 starter on a pre-'75 car that should have the 0.7, even though the #of flywheel teeth would tell you not to. But, I have heard of some guys having troubles with that interchangeability. Alternator-Starter Express is mistaken in listing the same starter from '86 - 94, whether or not they may be interchangeable. To be technically correct, you'd want the '90 -'94 starter for your '73.

I've had the gear-reduction starter ('86- '89) type on my '74 for years, and the ring gear looks perfect, with the same type starter on my '87, although it was original on that car.

I've attached a pic of the '86 - '89 gear-reduction starter from my '74. The weight is barely 7 pounds, or about half the 0.7's weight. I think the 1.1 was arround 16 lbs. I initially changed because I bought that starter cheap on eBay ($40), after I had a 1.1 crack the bellhousing on my '74. The gear-reduction starter also spins the engine much faster than any of the other starters I've had, and fires the engine instantly. Sounds like a Chrysler, too.

I used to have a pic with all three starters side by side, but can't seem to find it.

When I mentioned all this on the Alfa Digest a few years ago, the split seemed about 50/50, with just about as many guys telling me it wouldn't work as those telling me they had already done the same thing and liked it. Of the pro's that rsponded, Tom Sahines was adamant in saying I was looking for serious trouble, and I think maybe it was Jim Steck that said I was fine. I hope all that helps, although there's obviously still some uncertainty on the topic.

Regards,

Dean

[vangos]

Thanks for the info Dean. Would it be possible to swap the gear at the end of the new starter with the one I currently have to make sure it meshes well with my flywheel ringgear?

Vangelis

[67GTV]

A common misconception on replacing the starter on a Spica'd engine is that the fuel injection pump needs to be removed. It does not. When replacing the starter on my (former) '81 Spider, I used several long socket extensions with wobble to 'reach' behind the Spica pump from the front of the engine. I wound up doing this job three times due to stinker starters bought off eBay!

Since my bastard year Spider had the unique to '80 & '81 intake plenum, it had to be removed. I believe only the air filter housing needs to be removed from earlier Spica models.

Does anyone have the starter specs on older 1600 and 1750 engines?

[dwc]

Removal of a starter on a pre-'80 Spica car is a piece of cake, although on the '75> that have the proper motor mount brace for the starter, it can be a little more involved. On a '72 - '72, with the 0.7, it's a 10 minute job.

As for swapping gears from an early starter to the gear-reduction type, I doubt that would be possible, as the two starters are really built very differently. One thing that I forgot to mention is that some starters have 9 teeth, while others have only 8 teeth on the pinion gear. I believe the '72 - '74 and '90 - '94 have 9. I should have probably counted the teeth on the gear-reduction starter I used on my '74, but didn't think of it at the time. I also never verified the 131 teeth on the ring gear, and with a car that old, that's another factor that might have changed.

Here's a suggestion, though. Perhaps ask Alternator-Starter Express to count the teeth on a gear-reduction starter they have in stock, and explain to them that there are actually two different versions between '86 and '94, even though they only list one. Ask if you can buy a starter and return it, if it turns out not to be a match, but specify a 9-tooth pinion if they have one. For $100, it's worth a try.

I've got a spare 1.1hp starter somewhere, and if I Iget a chance tonight, I'll count the teeth on the pinion, just to verify that the middle years have 8 teeth.

Regards,

Dean

[papajam]

Quote:

Originally posted by 67GTV Does anyone have the starter specs on older 1600 and 1750 engines?

[dwc]

I just checked my stock of parts, and both my 0.7 and 1.1 spare starters have 9 teeth on the pinion gears. I wasn't able to fit my calipers around the gear with the starters assembled, but I did cut out a cardboard template, and both gears are identical in diameter, at least as far as the cardboard is concerned. Error in measurement could easily be 0.050", or whatever guess you'd like to make, just because the cardboard isn't as rigid as a metal caliper. This particular 1.1 was from a friend's very low mileage and very original '74 Spider, and FWIW my own low-mileage '74 also came to me with a 1.1 starter (in both cases without the motor mount brace that later cars had). Maybe some '74's had the big starter, even though the change wasn't "official" until '75.

I should also mention that starters and alternators aren't exactly rocket science, and in Zinhead's (the originator of this thread) case, local starter/alternator shops can often be very useful. Bosch starters and alternators are just as generic as can be. If you need a starter drive, solenoid, brushes, whatever, take the starter in and have it looked at. The rebuilder isn't going to care if it's from an Alfa, BMW, Porsche or Volvo, and isn't likely to add on the "Alfa" fee like IAP will. If the solenoid also happens to fit an old Beetle, ,that's what you'll get charged for. Of course, if you take the whole car in, you're likely asking for trouble.

As an aside, maybe a year ago I saw a NOS Ferrari F40 starter on eBay, and I'll be damned if it wasn't the same gear-reduction starter we've been discussing. Starting bid was $2400!!!, but it was in a pretty yellow box with little black horses all over it.

Regards,

Dean

[Zinhead]

Thanks for all of the responses. I ended up ordering the Bosch remanufactured starter from NAPA after having problems finding a local shop to rebuild the existing one. The remanufacturered Bosch starter was identical to the original part, with a new starter gear, bushings and electrical connectors. The only bummer was that it is spray painted black instead of the original unpainted steel.

The starter fit easily enough, but the engine still won't turnover. All I get is a rapid fire click click click from the solenoid (which is more than I was getting with the old starter).

When I bridge the terminals with a screwdriver, the starter spins readily, but doesn't engage the flywheel.

Any ideas???

[papajam]

Low battery and/or battery cable connections.

[JoeCab]

Here's another source for rebuilt Starters, Generators, and Alternators:

http://www.alfarex.com/services/reman.html