'71 Spider wipers - Page 2

BeigeAlfa · #16 (**permalink**) 10-06-2003, 11:10 AM

If it's any help, you CAN actually take those switches apart and re-assemble them, and make them live again.

You need to drill out the 3 rivets to break them open (one is the toggle pivot, two holding the switch body together). I replaced these with long thin bolts and nuts (and loctite). Beware, because the switch contains 5,000,000 microscopic components under spring pressure (slight exageration, but you get the picture).

It is VERY fiddly to get it all back together, but you can do it.
The trick is to have the toggle (or more accurately, the thing the toggle acts on) in the central position, with the two actuators touching each other. then lower this verrrrrry slowly into the switch body, teasing the two actuators apart with the central separator of the switch body. This makes perfect sense once you've taken it apart.

I can figure out the switches internal connections if you need me to.

Dan.

**Farace** · #17 (**permalink**) 10-06-2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeigeAlfa
If it's any help, you CAN actually take those switches apart and re-assemble them, and make them live again.

. . .

It is VERY fiddly to get it all back together, but you can do it.
The trick is to have the toggle (or more accurately, the thing the toggle acts on) in the central position, with the two actuators touching each other. then lower this verrrrrry slowly into the switch body, teasing the two actuators apart with the central separator of the switch body. This makes perfect sense once you've taken it apart.

BeigeAlfa · #18 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 04:15 AM

Warning - From Memory.

if the contacts on the back are labeled like this:

AB
CD
EF
GH

Inside the switch, there's two actuators. One between the AB,CD pairs, on between the EF,GH Pairs. One actuator shorts across a pair AB, CD, the other across EF, GH, depending on the toggle position. Looking at my fantastic diagram, both acctuators are either UP (pressed against AB, EF), Down (Pressed against CD, GH) or centered (Pressed against CD, EF)

The actuators move in the general direction of the switch.

Then, with the toggle pressed to AB
A to B, E to F Shorted
C to D,G to H Open

AB
^^

CD
EF
^^

GH

Toggle in the middle
C to D, E to F Shorted
A to B, G to H Open

AB

vv
CD
EF
^^

GH

Toggle pressed to GH
C to D, G to H Shorted
A to B, E to F Open.

AB

vv
CD
EF

vv
GH

BUT ALSO look carefully, because some of the metal bits that make up the switch may run through the switch internally, So, for example, BDFH may be always short, or CE may be always short, or BD etc. This should be pretty obvious by examining the switch or using a Multimeter. Then of course, there's the external wire links!

Hope I got that right. It should give you a general idea, though, I couldn't figure it out until I broke one open. I think that makes it a 8PDT, but with possible added confusion due to internal/external links between the poles.

Dan.

BeigeAlfa · #19 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 04:36 AM

Just to add to your joy, my wipers didn't work because:

The toggle switch was broken
The footswitch was broken
the soldering to the motor was broken

Took me a while to figure it all out!

Dan

**Farace** · #20 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 07:38 AM

Thanks, Dan, I'll get the multimeter warmed up. I've been fighting with getting the convertible top installed, and now that I think I'm finally understanding how things are supposed to go, it's a bit too cool to be applying glue and stretching fabric, so I may as well get back to the wiper problem. Hopefully I don't have the multiple problems you had. Certainly doesn't help figure things out.

**Farace** · #21 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 09:36 AM

Well, I pulled all the connectors off the switch, took it out of the car, and . . . it rattled. Badly. I drilled out the rivets holding it together and found that one of the levers that flips back and forth making connections had its metal top broken off. I imagine this is why the switch felt "soft" before--the loose metal top was interfering with the levers snapping back and forth. Funny I didn't hear it rattling like that when I had the switch out the other day, unless the loose part was trapped in the levers. BTW, seeing the inside makes it very clear how the switch works and what's being connected.

Anyway, I've ordered a new switch. Hopefully that's the only problem (but I'm not going to bet on it). By the end of the week I should have this switch and hopefully the foot pump/switch, so if it doesn't then work we'll have it down to two possibilities, the wiring to the motor or the motor itself.

**Farace** · #22 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 10:02 PM

Well, both the new wiper switch from IAP and the used wiper/washer footswitch from eBay arrived today. The switch part of the footswitch didn't work, so I drilled out the plastic that held it in, cleaned the contacts, and got it working. Reassembled it. Put both switches in the car. Held my breath and flipped the switch.

Nothing.

Wait a minute, it's not nothing. The switch was getting warm. That's not good. It made me wonder if the motor was being kept from turning. I went over to the cowl above the motor. I could feel heat rising from the motor. That's not good.

I removed the cowl. The motor is hot. I disconnected the motor and put it on my bench. I took it apart, and a pile of rust fell out. There's rust all over the windings and sticking to the magnets. That's not good. Just for the hopelessness of it, I removed as much rust as I could and reassembled the motor. I plugged it in and flipped the switch. Still nothing. Oh, well.

So now I know I need a wiper motor. There's a likely candidate on eBay, but I'm waiting to hear back from the seller with the part number and how many wires it has. This one is part number 0390346086. Four wires. If anyone knows where to get one, I'd love to know, in case this on eBay isn't right. IAP only carries them from '86 forward.

I was going to go down to DMV tomorrow, too, to get my temp plates, figuring that I'd have the necessary repairs done before the plate ran out. Now I'm not so sure. Grrr.

**Roadtrip** · #23 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 10:58 PM

Vick's Auto in Dallas lists one in his catalog for a 72-3/86. I'd give them a call and see what they know about interchangability.

My 74 wire diagram shows that a 74 also has four wires . . . Br, R, Blk, & G. I would expect one to be a ground, one to be constant hot (wiper park function), a switched low speed, and a switched high speed.

For a used one try Alfa Parts Exchange (APE). They seem to have a way of pulling stuff out of a hat. I'll bet (Larry?) knows the interchangability options also. 290-833-8330

Failing that, you might try an electrical motor repair shop in your local area. It sounds like it may be a simple short in the motor that can be fixed with a simple solder job. It's amazing what junk can be brought back to life. A smart electric motor guy could tell you exactly what's wrong with it. Does the armature turn? Take your can of CRC electrics cleaner spray and clean it out real good.

Did you check to see if current was getting to the motor wire harnass before you ordered new switches? Of course it could be that a shorted motor burned the switch. Running a 12v hot jumper wire to one of motor speed wires (not the ground nor the constant hot park wire) on the wiper motor would have verified the motor as non-operational. I'm surprised that you didn't blow a fuse with the motor seized up like that. Confirm that you have 8a fuses across the board in the fusebox.

BeigeAlfa · #24 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 02:53 AM

I got a lot of heated-up switch action during my wiper rebuild oddesey, but that was down to me rewiring the switch wrongly. Did you follow a wiring diagram or make your own notes where the wires came off? I seem to remember mine being so very slightly different. It's a mystery to me too why the fuse didn't go.

Also, check your footswitch again - you might find the flippy-floppy bit of copper has heated up and melted itself into it's plastic base, making it not so flippy-floppy any more. You know what I mean if you're been in there!

I agree with roadtrip, keep at it with the motor you've got. Clean it up, check all 3 carbon brushes, try hooking it up to 12v on the bench, see if you can make it go. I managed to repair almost every single electric component on my spider, barring stuff I needed a chisel to take apart (damn you oil pressure switch).

keep at it, you'll get it going eventually.

Dan.

**Farace** · #25 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 07:00 AM

Thanks for the replies. John, no, I didn't check to see if power was getting to the motor first. I knew I needed the switches because the console switch was not switching properly and rattling--turned out the tip was broken off one of the contacts inside and so it wasn't switching--and the floor switch was just plain missing, so I got one of those off eBay.

Dan, I followed the original wiring which was confirmed by others.

I don't know why the fuse didn't blow. They're all 8-amp fuses (just got some new ones, too, from IAP when I ordered the switch). As for getting this motor going, I may try again, but I'm not so sure. When I say rust came out of it, I mean big chunks of rust, not just a light coating. There was lots of it, and I'm guessing that those big chunks of rust used to be big chunks of motor parts. I used a small wire brush in my Dremel tool to clean off the armature as best I could, but you know how sometimes rust will cling to metal and deform it? The metal laminates are like that. The armature is free to turn while the motor is apart, but there might be interference with what's left of the magnets when it's together.

I hate to think I might have ruined the floor switch right after I fixed it . . . I'll have to go check it later.

There's a possible motor on eBay right now. I'm waiting to hear from the seller with the part number and number of wires.

CarPoor · #26 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 10:59 AM

Bob-
I went through a lot of this kind of drama when I was tring to save the defroster fan on a Spider I used to have...I ended up buying a used switch, and a new fan from IAP, but the actual FAN was the wrong size, so I had to remove it and reuse the old unit so it didn't hit the plastic case. I know what you mean about the bits of rust once having been bits of motor...that's what I found when I disassembled my fan motor. BUT, as I said, the wiper motor is a Bosch unit, so you may be able to swap it for a new one if the rest of the mechanism is OK.
Good luck,
CarPoor (Pat Hood)

**Farace** · #27 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CarPoor
Bob-
I went through a lot of this kind of drama when I was tring to save the defroster fan on a Spider I used to have...I ended up buying a used switch, and a new fan from IAP, but the actual FAN was the wrong size, so I had to remove it and reuse the old unit so it didn't hit the plastic case. I know what you mean about the bits of rust once having been bits of motor...that's what I found when I disassembled my fan motor. BUT, as I said, the wiper motor is a Bosch unit, so you may be able to swap it for a new one if the rest of the mechanism is OK.
Good luck,
CarPoor (Pat Hood)

**Roadtrip** · #28 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 01:00 PM

It's really frustrating, isn't it? Something as simple as a wiper motor is so hard to find. Could have overhauled the engine in the amount of time it takes to get something like this squared away.

**Farace** · #29 (**permalink**) 10-12-2003, 01:58 PM

Hopefully someone can answer this in the next few hours . . . there are about six hours to go on this auction right now.

There's a wiper motor on eBay right now, rebuilt. I asked the seller and he confirms that it's a four-wire motor. The part number is different, though. Should this concern me, or will basically any four-wire motor that "looks" right work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2436111993

The part number from the motor out of my car is 0390346086. The part number for the motor on eBay is 1395105112.

It's a little pricey compared to other wiper motors on eBay, but it's rebuilt with a six-month warranty, and that's worth something.

Thanks!

**papajam** · #30 (**permalink**) 10-12-2003, 03:04 PM

The 4/71 USA parts book lists the wiper motor as part #105.44.65.052.04 (Bosch #0.390.326.004) for Spiders up to chassis #1485000. This is a 3 wire motor.
For Spiders with chassis #1485001 and higher, the 4 wire wiper motor # is 105.95.65.052.04 (Bosch #WS 23/2U 103).
Although it's somewhat difficult to see the electrical connector in the ad, it looks the same as this 3 wire connector. Then again, the pic in the ad could just be a file photo.