No start, it's got me stumped!

[Sniady]

Alright guys,

My gtv will not start. There is a "kachunk" but no crank. Anwsers?

I have not check my connections at the starter yet. But I had a Alfa Tech fix a loose connection on it already (long story), and it was working. Has my starter just shut down?

It's late and I could'nt take the spica box off due to no light. I checked volatge at the battery (12.66), Alternator w/ ignition turned on (12. something), and the volatge regulator is at 12. something aswell.


Help!!! I want to try and hack this down tomorrow mourning, so I can get me to school and work.

[Roadtrip]

Rut row, Scooby.

Sounds like the classic "click, no crank." I'm thinkin' it's probably the starter solenoid (assuming the battery cable is attached firmly). Mine did the same thing last year. I could turn the key to start about four times in succession and it would start. I did this for several months until I got a good deal on a used starter assembly. The starter motor itself was good. I could run power directly to the starter motor and cause it to spin, but the solenoid wasn't closing the big brass contacts in the solenoid enough to make a good connection and spin the starter motor. The solenoid itself actuated the pinon pivot fine, just not the starter motor.

As far as tomorrow morning goes, go to start and off several times in quick succession and see if you get the starter motor. If not, there's always the push start. Just park on the tops of hills for the rest of the day.

Good luck Sniady.

[Sniady]

Oh I've been playing the sucession game since the day I bought my car.

Then I found out one of my Positive wires was barly touching the starter, and I was'nt getting enough juice.

I think it's the solenoid aswell. I'll try and battle it tomorrow. I guess I'll be push starting till I can find me a rebuild kit, or starter.


ARRRRR!


P.s. My GTV's wiring is all funky, I hope this does not effect my alternator. I'll have to do a test while she's purring tomorrow. What's the alternator suppose to juice out? 12.5-14.5v?

[turbolarespider]

Those solenoids are flaky. The one on our 73 seems to have problems as well, about 50% of the time, the motor will spin and not engage to the flywheel. But that seems to go away, AND does not sound like the same problem...

While you are there, make sure that the cables are not about to pull out of the terminals- that will cause more problems than you can think. Most of the ones on the solenoid are easy to replace- the battery one can be a pain since it's such a big cable.

Don't be afraid to lightly pull the wires to see if the connection comes apart- if it does, then it was bad anyway.

Eric

[Keven]

Sniady,

Might want to make sure you add a relay from the ignition switch to the solenoid.
In fact you might want to add the realy first to see if it solves your problem.

I think the ignition switch gets corroded over time, and does not provide enough amperage(current) to the solenoid to engage the starter. I had the same problem with my 78 spider, and this solved my problem. Also you might want to lube the solenoid to make sure it moves smothely/freely.

Here is a really nice write up from the Kansas City chapter of AROC:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/D.../spicrela.html

[Terry Mancheste]

This may be too late to get you to school but before getting into the starter or solenoid check the battery connections, give them a little twist on the battery terminals or take them off and clean them. When dirty, sometimes there is just enough electrical contact to energise the solenoid but not good enough contact to supply the large current required by the starter. Hence the click but no start.

[papajam]

Quote:

Originally posted by turbolarespider Don't be afraid to lightly pull the wires to see if the connection comes apart- if it does, then it was bad anyway.

[Sniady]

Well I took the Air box outday, and found that my Ignition (black wire) was disconnected from the solenoid terminal, so it was a plug and play.

Is it normal for the ignition wire to be split into half (kind of made into a fusible link, but the gauge thickness is the same, which should probably be 4 times bigger right?) with one end going into the solenoid, and the other into the cold start swicth? I still get a click occaionally and have to re turn the ignition. And sometimes it just cranks and cranks and wont start, so I unplug the cold start switch and it fires right up.

My GTV's wiring is so crappy. My battery is in the trunk, and the positive lead cable is so damn thin! I don't know how the starter even cranks. Aww I can't wait for the day I begin making some chips, then I can full retore my GTV.

[Keven]

Sniady,

Cant help you with the cold start question.
But I can sypathize with you on wiring. If a PO has done some re-wiring, you are in heaps of trouble, also any car that is over 30 years old probably could use a new wiring harness. Now the real problem, how to get a new harness for a 30 yr old Alfa?

I found this place, and looks like a really nice universla harness. Im thinking of using one of these, once I strip the car down, price seems reasonable. Anyone use these?


http://www.painlessperformance.com/

[Roadtrip]

I think the wiring harnass would have to have a lot of damage (like a short-initiated fire) before I'd replace it with a univeral harnass. The wires are probably fine, but quite a few of the connectors may have corroded beyond repair or lost their grip. Just replace any questionable connectors and solder them on. A visual inspection for rubs and cuts would probably suffice. Also replacing individual wires that are heat damaged is relatively easy.

Alfa electrical systems are pretty simple anyway. If you're doing a complete body tear-down, I would think it would be pretty easy (but time consuming) to just lay out the old harnass on the floor and duplicate a new one with bulk wire.

I'll be 95% of even old wire harnasses are basically sound. Just replacing connectors as needed and taking CRC spray and a dremel tool wire brush to shiny them up is all they need.

[papajam]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sniady Well I took the Air box outday, and found that my Ignition (black wire) was disconnected from the solenoid terminal, so it was a plug and play. Is it normal for the ignition wire to be split into half (kind of made into a fusible link, but the gauge thickness is the same, which should probably be 4 times bigger right?) with one end going into the solenoid, and the other into the cold start swicth?

[Sniady]

Draw one up please.

I'm in this auto tech school, and I just gone through advanced electrical. It's helped out a lot! I look at the GTV wiring diagrams, and they're cake, so easy to read, and so little wiring.

But I'm still a rookie, and I've toyed around with ford starter relays, but don't want to work on it for 5 hours. A diagram helps a lot.

Thanks Pap!

Once I begin earning some chips, one of my projects is to re-wire the whole car myself (scary). I'll just lay out all the harnesses and copy them. I want me a show room GTV! I want to feel the feeling of a spankin' new GTV.

[Sniady]

Well since I plugged in the ignition wire switch into the solenoid, the car starts, but it still takes four ignition cranks to get the starter to go.

So I got in the GTV, and headed for Radio Shack. I purchased me some 22 Gauge wire, Butt connectors, female slides, and wire stripper/crimper.

Popped the spica box off, and studied the wiring the best I could. Well turns out some previous owner jimmy riged a switch to the solenoid and cold start (switch was under dash). I have no idea what it's purpose was. But the ignition wire was split into a bad fusible link. So I had my ignition wire plugged to my solenoid, and from the same connector another wire came out and plugged into 3 wires, two from the switch, and one to the cold start. So I cut the igniton wire, which lead to permanently throwing away the switch setup out. Cut some new wire crimped it, and plugged it into the solenoid. Cut another foot of wire, and threw two female connectors on it, and plugged it into the second male connector on the solenoid, and the other end to the cold start.

When I first purchased this GTV, it never started well, it's been a year. I delt with it some kind of way. Now that I've taken 180 hours of electrical class, I now have the balls to battle electrical gremlins! Wiring is so fun! I can't wait to re-wire the whole car.

[Roadtrip]

Sniady -
What you have there is a jury-rigged modification that was fairly common years ago on the SPICA Alfa's. Basically it was a toggle switch that cutout current to the Cold Start Solenoid. The problem was starts from a hot engine where the CSS would stick and flood the engine. I think a lot of this was fear & superstition. All that crap ought to come out of the car and it be restored to original setup, but better still to Papajam's suggestion which is VERY simple to wire. The ignition key switch contacts are relatively fragile and with the stock system, when you crank the starter motor you are providing current to TWO high current draw items. If the driver cranks the engine for a long time, those small contacts in the ignition key switch can overheat and burn out . . . about a $100 item and a real PIA to R&R.

With Papajam's setup, the ignition key switch only has to provide a small current to two relays. The relays then act as heavy duty switches which can easily handle the current to the starter solenoid and CSS.

When I get time I'm going to do it to my car. Reason? To prolong the life of that expensive ignition key switch. I'm going to do the same with the fuel supply pump and use a much heavier wire to ensure full voltage to the supply pump. Also, since mine is a '74 it doesn't have an inertia switch. I'm going to install one as a safety measure.

[fgc]

Hey Snaidy,

You can do it... rewire the car that is. Just spend a couple days (nights) studying the diagram and with simple understanding of the electics, it should not be a problem for you, espeically since you appear to be training for a future in the electics industry.

Just a quick word though, please check the wire thickness for your starter... off hand I cannot remember what the amps rating are but it was something like close to 20 amps to crank. As I drive a carbs version, I am not sure of the wiring arrangement nor the current required for a spica version. But do recheck the gage of wire you use. I just rewired mine and the smallest wire I used was 16 gage with the starter taking 12/10?? gage (need to check) and the supply to the fuse box in 10 gage. These are abit larger than what was specified by the original factory diagram but better to run "cooler" wires and more importantly have less voltage loss (which is critical in our 12v system) than a thinner wire and experience up to a 1 volt loss which will make any starter that is already marginal (or in the cold) not work at all, not to mention the potential wire overheating problem.

By the way, if the starter is kinda on the blink (nothing to do with external wire connections, a trick that I picked up from the AA or in your case the AAA (I think) is to tap the starter with a mallet. Unless it is totally conked off, a marginal starter/solenoid may be persuaded to turn just one more time. The drill is to tap it once or twice and then crank. Did that with my van for almost a whole month till I got the $$$ to change the starter out (but please if anyone should get stuck trying this out ... and it doesnt work... err please you dont know me ok!)

Alternatively, parking on a hill the whole time helps too... you might not just want to just use the clutch to jump start but once the car is rolling ever so slightly, let go of the clutch to jolt the starter and turn the key and crank the starter at the same time, the marginal starter may jolted to turn one more time. So it may not be necessary to get the stalled car up to a fair speed just to jump start it.

fgc