Perplexing Power Problem

**Toptick** · #1 (**permalink**) 08-25-2003, 02:51 PM

I tried to start my '86 Spider this morning. It turned over 4 times (smartly) then died. No response from anything electrical. Voltage at the battery 12.9v, voltage at the Alternator Terminal Block anywhere from 3v to 6.5v.

I pulled all the fuses to see if that made any difference, but no. It seems like some sort of a short to me, but I have no idea how to isolate the offending circuit, and with no isolation, no identification or repair.

The same thing happened a few days ago, but it fixed (?) itself overnight.

I had a flickering battery light and no charging a while back, the Battery and Alternator are new within the last month as a result.

Any Thoughts? Battery currently disconnected so I can sleep better.

Art Graham

**Sniady** · #2 (**permalink**) 08-25-2003, 04:56 PM

You should check connections at the starter (main power from battery, remember to disconnect negative side), they have a tendency to come loose.

**Roadtrip** · #3 (**permalink**) 08-25-2003, 06:41 PM

Are you sure both the battery and engine grounds are good?

**Toptick** · #4 (**permalink**) 08-25-2003, 06:52 PM

Battery ground is fine, not sure where the engine ground is, unless it is the connection to the starter. I haven't gone under the car to check yet. Seems to be a clearance issue. Not sure if the car is too low, or perhaps (most likely) I'm too fat!

**Toptick** · #5 (**permalink**) 08-26-2003, 04:09 PM

I checked the engine ground and the starter connections. All tight and apparently good. Power at the battery is 13.2v. Power at the starter (and at the alternator cable terminal board) is 0 to 10v, depending on the position of the ignition switch (on is no voltage), with the volts gradually building back up to 10v within 30 sec of turning off the key. Any load will kill the voltage (opening the door knocks it down to 4.5v). All the while the battery is happy happy happy at 13+ volts. I tried to bypass the main cable from the battery to the starter by using one leg of a jumper cable from the battery to the alternator cable terminal block to see if there was a cable fault. No change in any of the voltages—all the while the battery shows 13+v. It almost seems like there is a force field between the front and the back of the car that saps several volts & all of the amps. If I had any hair left on my head it would all be pulled out by now! Is it possible that the starter is stuck “engaged” & that is the source of the drain? Any other thoughts?

**papajam** · #6 (**permalink**) 08-26-2003, 05:00 PM

Your description, "Power at the battery is 13.2v. Power at the starter (and at the alternator cable terminal board) is 0 to 10v,....." tells me that the problem is in the positive battery cable to the starter assuming, of course, that the chassis ground strap between the body and the right side of the transmission is OK.
Try checking the voltage at the starter with the negative voltmeter lead grounded at the battery. If you read battery volts, the chassis ground is the problem. If the reading is less than battery volts, the positve cable or connections are the problem.

**Roadtrip** · #7 (**permalink**) 08-26-2003, 05:54 PM

Use a jumper cable and attach one end to the NEG terminal of the battery and the other end to the engine, thus by-passing the engine ground strap and see if it makes any difference. If it does, the ground strap is the offender.

As a matter of PM, I just got finished using CRC electrical cleaner spray to clean every single spade terminal I could find in the engine compartment. I also took a small dremel tool with a wire brush attachment and brushed the terminals bright. I found all of them very dirty, corroded, and oxidized. Pay particular attention to the 3 wire terminal connectors at the alternator and the voltage regulator. It'll take a small jewelers screwdriver or paperclip to push the lock tang up so the spade terminal will slip out of the plastic connector.

I think you've got a ground problem. Is the throttle cable heating up when you try and crank the engine? If so, that would point to a bad ground strap. What happens is that, since the ground strap is not carrying the load, the current passes through the throttle cable and can actually melt the casing.

**67GTV** · #8 (**permalink**) 08-26-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roadtrip
As a matter of PM, I just got finished using CRC electrical cleaner spray...

**papajam** · #9 (**permalink**) 08-26-2003, 06:24 PM

**Toptick** · #10 (**permalink**) 08-26-2003, 07:23 PM

BINGO!!

Bad Engine Ground is the culprit.

How many times have I heard the bad grounds are the major cause of electrical problems in Alfas?

When I slid under the spider to see what I could see, I first grabbed ahold of the flat braided ground cable & gave it a good twist/yank. All seemed OK, so I went on to the next... I should have remembered from my callow mis-spent youth hanging around boats that those braided cables were ALWAYS corroding & creating problems.

I shoulda known better.

RT, you get the gold star for suggesting jumping the negative battery to the engine, why I only jumped the positive must show some sort of bias.

Papajam, you are close enough (?) so I can offer you a round of golf out here on the East End at a place most people don't get to play.

I really appreciate all the help, now to replace that cable.....

**Toptick** · #11 (**permalink**) 08-27-2003, 07:07 PM

After all that, the problem turned out to be the ground from the battery to the chassis in the trunk. It was good & tight, and looked perfect, but it was bad all the same. Live & learn. I guess it didn't hurt anything to redo all of them....

**papajam** · #12 (**permalink**) 08-27-2003, 07:59 PM

Good show, Toptick!! Congrats!

And thanks to Roadtrip for another great diagnostic tip to use a jumper!

**Roadtrip** · #13 (**permalink**) 08-27-2003, 11:04 PM

Another save by the good guys.

Toptick - Even an '86 is getting old and corrosion is the #1 enemy of electrics. Time to embark on a program to little by little do a thorough inspection and cleaning of electrical connections. In an Alfa, there aren't that many of them anyway. Also, if you're battery cables are looking their age, it may be time to replace them as well. I just replaced the ones on my 74. The clamps were all battered and cracking, and the starter connection end clip was frayed. Don't forget the fuel supply pump connections. If they're corroded, the Bosch fuel supply pump probably isn't getting it's "full monty" of voltage, thus dropping fuel line pressure and causing the engine to perhaps perform poorly. You'll pull your hair out chasing it . . . . and what will it be? . . . . . yep . . . . . a couple of corroded 10c connectors and a corroded ground wire.

**John M** · #14 (**permalink**) 08-28-2003, 12:19 AM

.02

Corrosion of the electrical connections is truely the biggest problem these Alfas face. Does not matter what series. Fortunately enough, its an easy fix.

This truely is a great page and great group of people. I have to brag on PapaJam here. He took time out of his day this weekend to drive up and meet Eric (SpencerTurtle1) to work on his car and get him up and going. Jim didn't know Eric from Adam so to speak, but it didn't matter. Is that not awesome or what? I think this kind of community is really what sets Alfa owners apart. My only question is whether Papajam or RT is going to move to KY to work on my two? Great Job Papa!

Best Regards,
John M

**smestas** · #15 (**permalink**) 08-28-2003, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by John M
He took time out of his day this weekend to drive up and meet Eric (SpencerTurtle1) to work on his car and get him up and going. Jim didn't know Eric from Adam so to speak, but it didn't matter.