1600/1750 weak start motor ? - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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1600/1750 weak start motor ?

I put a 1750 motor in my Duetto , using the old transmission/bellhausing /flywheel /startmotor (2-bolt type). I have started the car many times now , and it runs fine. But the starter has allways cranked the engine over very slow . Almost stopping up sometimes. Even before droping it in the car. I've had the starter apart , and done all the tests I can find on you tube, using a multimeter, but I can't find anything wrong. Bearings/bushes ,teeth ,brushes look good. no internal rubbing. The battery is New and so are all the Heavy cables (I have not done voltage drop test over these -I will ). Maybe the brushes could be dressed better (there are only 2) ? Is this motor to weak for the 1750 ? I have never had the 1600 running - so can't compair - but I don't realy think the larger engine is the problem.
Any advice to get here ? Thanks !
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:36 AM
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Where is your static advance set? An engine with a lot of low-speed advance will be difficult to crank.

Jay Mackro
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'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 11:02 AM
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Jay is right !
Check the timing.
If the starter doesn't turn very quickly or it makes troubling noises, you may have the wrong tooth combo on starter/ flywheel.
Or the starter may need a rebuild, or the engine has too high compression.

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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
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I set it at the F mark or was it T , - the one right next to P. To much advance and it has a very hard time. But even doing a compression test , it slows Down alot on the compression stroke. I should also mention that I have a groud cable to the engine (+ an exstra one to be sure), and I had no voltage drop over the solinoid. The comunicator on the starter was kind of dirty. I cleaned it up but dident do much With the brushes. Think I should try filing them flat ?

Last edited by alfatrym; 04-19-2017 at 12:06 PM.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101/105guy View Post
Jay is right !
Check the timing.
If the starter doesn't turn very quickly or it makes troubling noises, you may have the wrong tooth combo on starter/ flywheel.
Or the starter may need a rebuild, or the engine has too high compression.
The combo - starter /flywheel are from the original sett up -they have always been together. .I can buy a New starter - it would have to be a Three bolt -thats all I can get New. But The original starter is pretty simple - everything looks good - and I would like to find the cause first.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 11:36 AM
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Yes, troubleshoot and then buy parts.......
or it may be a simple adjustment !

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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Yes ! So I take it that- these old starters normaly don't have any problem cranking the engine at a good speed ? Concerning the 1750 , I bought it a long time ago . no starter or alternator. Though I havnen't opened it up , Everything about it ,tells me that it hasen't been modified, or worked on. I'll try and dress the brushes a little better , maybe get some New ones if posible. In the end -if it dosen't work - I'll give up and buy a New.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 12:42 PM
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When new, there was no problem with the standard parts !
On such an old car, don't assume anything.
Once, my '64 Spider blew a head gasket. Fixed everything including having the radiator rebuilt to get the oily milkshake cleaned up.
After reassembly, the car would over heat quickly just at idle...
Checked all of the usual suspects, all good. /then pulled the shinny newly rebuilt radiator and took it to another shop to test..
75% clogged.....
All the first shop did was to spray it black.

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
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My English is getting better : its called beding the brushes and dressing the comunicator !
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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I hear You. The New starter is for a 1750(3 bolt) With 110 tooth starter ring , but it will also work on the old style 2 bolt belhausing With 105 teeth, they claim. Proably true , but there have been some disapointments With New parts. Papajam has had some posts about this topic and i Guess they did switch to a different style starter (3 bolt) in 1969, wich was a replacment for the old 2 bolt style starter. But that was when Alfa was running the show.
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfatrym View Post
I'll try and dress the brushes a little better , maybe get some New ones if posible. .
There may be some benefit in having a professional electrical shop test and possibly rebuild the starter. They may find that there is a broken/shorted lead in the armature or field, or some other problem that isn't visibly obvious.

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'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

Last edited by Alfajay; 04-19-2017 at 02:04 PM.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
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There may be some benefit in having a professional electrical shop test and possibly rebuild the starter. They may find that there is a broken/shorted lead in the armature or field, or some other problem that isn't visibly obvious.
That is so true , I called the local Bocsh Shop , that have done tings for me in the past. They said it had been years since they rebuilt anything. But I gave them the starter nr , they are going to se if they can find some new brushes. They said the motor went out of production in 2002. This is a small town, so there are not a lot of specialty shops of this kind around here. But I'll give it one more shot and see. The new one isn't that expensive, and sending it out to a professional is going cost at least the same wether they can fix it or not.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 07:17 PM
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Remove the starter solenoid and reverse the "Shorting bar" on the end of the shaft. This provides better continuity where the bar touches the contacts and more current is available to turn the starter motor. I did this on a 1971 1750 spider, and the increase in cranking speed was significant.

Edit: I just realized you said there was no voltage drop over the solenoid, so my advice may have been in vain...


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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
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I think I have found the problem . On the second check with the Fluke , I found the field coil is leaking to ground- 35 m ohms.
I was not albe to loosen the 4 big screws holding it , but gave the screws some penetrating oil and I'll try the impact driver tomorrow. A new field coil is located , and is about half the price of the new starter . I'll get it of ,and take a look at the problem first , but I am tempted to try and fix it with a new FC.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfatrym View Post
I found the field coil is leaking to ground- 35 m ohms.
Thirty-five ohms, or thirty-five mega ohms? If it's 35 MΩ, then I doubt that's the problem.

Jay Mackro
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'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
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