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post #61 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-26-2005, 01:11 PM
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As long as you're sure there's no other fasteners holding it on, go ahead. The base gasket is probably just sticky from being on there for years. Underneath the forward pump body where it fastens to the engine, there's just the 6 studs . . . nothing internal holding it on. A rubber hammer is probaby ok, or just pry with some wood under the rear pump body to break the gasket seal.

I assume you have the drive belt off, right?

Again, I don't know Monty's, but you're going to have to get the drive belt off first I'm pretty sure. The pump pulley might be easy to get off, or it could be on that tapered shaft pretty stuck pretty good. Can you slip the bottom part of the belt off it's sproket (which I doubt)? That Monty pump sproket looks like it's got a front lip on it and would be very hard to get the belt over.

The SPICA drive belts aren't meant to be stretched or kinked. If they are, they're likely to break the internal cords and weaken the belt significantly.

Since it's aluminum, don't use a hard hammer.

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post #62 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-27-2005, 04:18 AM Thread Starter
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Belt is still on.

I was hoping to be able to 'wiggle' the pump a little to free up the belt enough to slide it off at the spica side. If this does not work, I will try a soft wedge and apply a little more force...
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post #63 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 09:00 AM Thread Starter
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The spica pump came out today and I think the pictures below remove all doubt that its a pump problem.....

The crankshaft is totally starved of oil, the inside of the pumping section is full of crap and there are two of the crankshaft bearings broken or cracked....

Needless to stay the pump is very difficult to turn by hand.... I think this accounts of the difficult starting and degradation of performance over the last few weeks.......

A few remaining questions.....
a) is this fixable by wes ingram or is it too far gone ?
b) I guess its ok to clean out the pump with wd40 and send it for repair
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post #64 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 09:32 AM
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Wow. That's the most broken pump I've ever seen.

The crankshaft is probably the most irreplaceable item in the pump section, so if that can be salvaged, the pump is probably rebuildable. The rest (I think) are the same as the 4c pumps. The crank bearings are available. The rods/tappets are a loose fit around the crankshaft journal, so my guess is the crankshaft journals can be polished out pretty easily.

If anyone can rebuild it, is Wes Ingram. I'd advise you drop him an email with the pictures you took and ask his professional opinion. As far as cleaning the pump . . just clean the outside of the caked-on muck. Let Wes clean the interior so you don't do any additional damage.

That pump hasn't seen oil in a very long time. I recall you saying that the car sat derelict for a long time. This pump is a poster-child for what can happen to a very expensive injection pump that's left to rot.

At least the mystery is solved. The next one is . . why wasn't the pump section getting oil?

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Last edited by Roadtrip; 03-28-2005 at 09:39 AM.
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post #65 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 11:13 AM Thread Starter
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What should the gap between the pump and the engine look like...i.e the bit that that pump sits on....

Mine has the gasket at the edges but the centre had some sort of soft lining / gauze that looks pretty dirty also, there are also what looks like oil holes to allow oil back into the engine proper....
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post #66 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 01:15 PM
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The Monty pump section castings are different that the 4c ones, it looks. On the 4c pumps there's the pressurized oil feed from the engine, then another hole that drains back to the sump. With the drain hole, you should be able to see that it goes from the pump crankcase to the flange face (then back to the sump), if it has one. . However, the Monty pumps need another oilway to feed the rear pump as well.

I should be getting a Monty manual soon that might help me understand the subtle differences between the 4c and 8c systems.

Post a picture of the open mating flange on the engine and one of the pump flange. Does the pump crankcase section seem open to the engine internals where oil could just drain directly back into the engine instead of going through a drain oilway?

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post #67 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
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actually the pump sits on to of the spica oil filter unit which extends at roughtly 45 degrees to the pump itself.

so on the monti, the oil filter remains attached to the car .....I will take a photo tomorrow and post it. It looks normal enough just a bit dirty ....

I have emailed some photos of the pump to Wes Ingram - fingers crossed.
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post #68 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 02:40 PM
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Hmmmm. . . ok. Sounds the same as a 4c mounting base. Does it look like this?

If so, you want to remove it and clean out the oil filter assembly. That may be why there's no oil getting to the pump section.

Here's an cross section view of the 4c oil filter assembly. Note the one-way check valve. Oil comes from the engine (unfiltered in the case of the 4c), into the outer area of the oil filter, through the filter to the center, then through the one-way check valve and into the pump section (logic section is not pressure lubricated). I suspect that the one-way check valve is seized shut, thus not allowing any oil into the pump sections.

If you suspect that, send the base to Wes also, so he can fix it.
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post #69 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 09:26 AM Thread Starter
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At least from the top side they look the same.....

On the 8c pump, the oil filter sticks out to the side
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post #70 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 09:38 AM
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That base looks badly corroded in the oil supply and return holes. It needs to come off the engine for a complete cleaning as well.

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post #71 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
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thanks - will remove and clean it....

Lots of time now to clean things while I wait for the pump.....

PS theres one on ebay at the moment -- might be useful for parts if the price does not go crazy
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post #72 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 11:08 AM
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After a rebuild, you shouldn't need any parts. As long as you keep your new pump well-lubricated, filters clean, use Marvel Mystery Oil in the gasoline, your new pump will last for a very long time . . . at least 100k miles. I saw that pump on ebay. It looks in very poor condition.

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post #73 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15625
thanks - will remove and clean it....

Lots of time now to clean things while I wait for the pump.....

PS theres one on ebay at the moment -- might be useful for parts if the price does not go crazy
What do you mean while you wait for the pump? fuel pump?
Don't buy anything for it off ebay way to risky instead spend your money with WES and it may well outlast you. If you try to do it yourself I would think used ones from alfa folks are pretty easy to come by from those that have switched to carbs but even then who knows what condition they will be in. Although it may seem expensive His reputation is very good and you get what you pay for ! After looking at the photos (wow!!!!) do you think this a good reason why we should change our oil every 3000 miles in addition to all the other servicing comments? I understand the internal cams wear out and wes reprofiles them I dont know of anyone else who can perform this service. Roadtrip do you?

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post #74 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-30-2005, 07:09 AM
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He was referring to waiting for the injection pump to be rebuilt, not the supply pumps. I think reference to the Ebay pump was for parts, not as a functional injection pump.

The Montreal SPICA pump is not interchangable with the 4c pumps. Some internal parts are, however. Since the Montreal was fairly low production, finding good spare injection pumps is pretty hard.

There are probably a couple of vendors in Europe that can rebuild it, since they do diesel pumps as well, but are probably not specialists like Wes Ingram is. There's a Montreal alfisti in Switzerland that has a great website on Montreals. He'd probably know if there are any good rebuilders for SPICA pumps in Europe.

There is supposidly another rebuilder of SPICA pumps in San Diego, however, I don't know their reputation. Give that the customer base is so small, it's hard to see how more than one rebuilder is really necessary or practical.

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post #75 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-30-2005, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrip
He was referring to waiting for the injection pump to be rebuilt, not the supply pumps. I think reference to the Ebay pump was for parts, not as a functional injection pump.

The Montreal SPICA pump is not interchangable with the 4c pumps. Some internal parts are, however. Since the Montreal was fairly low production, finding good spare injection pumps is pretty hard.

There are probably a couple of vendors in Europe that can rebuild it, since they do diesel pumps as well, but are probably not specialists like Wes Ingram is. There's a Montreal alfisti in Switzerland that has a great website on Montreals. He'd probably know if there are any good rebuilders for SPICA pumps in Europe.

There is supposidly another rebuilder of SPICA pumps in San Diego, however, I don't know their reputation. Give that the customer base is so small, it's hard to see how more than one rebuilder is really necessary or practical.
Hi John,
you had written " Again, forgive me, but I'm not that familiar with Montreal injection pumps. They are, however, basically two 4-cylinder pump bodies bolted together with a common logic section at the rear" .This is what confused me. Is it really bolted together, or just similar in operation or actually a single case(body)? I had searched ebay and came up with zilch, just curious to see those parts.I was thinking some parts from 4C pumps might be interchangable But surely there would be specific to monty parts also.
Bennica in Land of Oz told me he wanted to use a Monty pump on a GTAm project, I assume 2 injectors per cylinder. I have yet to understand why? That's why I'm following this thread. I would have thought there are other rebuilders for other pumps but I understand they don't make parts (maybe just the cam?) for the Spica anymore and if and when a cam profile wears out it must be reground, which is a WES specialty.

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