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post #31 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-19-2005, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
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Just a few items I want to clarify

a) can you identify the plunger on the photo

b) 'rotate the pump' - how to I do this ?

c) 'At that point two fuel inlet holes are uncovered and there should be lots of fuel running into the bore with the fuel pump running.' --- do you suggest running with the towers off ? or do I put the towers back

Thanks
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post #32 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-19-2005, 02:16 PM
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The plunger is inside the barrel and is the thing that goes up and down like a piston. It pumps the fuel to the injectors.

To rotate the pump, just put the car in 4th gear and roll it forward until the pump rotates into position. Of course, DO NOT attempt to start the car with the fuel towers off.

The purpose of this is to find out where the blockage is. If the plunger is at the bottom of the stroke and the check valve is removed, and there fuel pressure, fuel should flow up.
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post #33 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-20-2005, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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Just an update.

I changed the plugs back to the old ones, checked the ignition leads (even tried some nice new ones I got from classic alfa in the UK). Still no improvement.

I could not get the check valve seat out --- I did not want to try to much force with the pliers ....

I also noticed that there is a pool of fresh oil underneath the spica pump....this looks like some (maybe all) of the 1/2 pint I added to the pump.

At this stage, I am now really considering, removed the spica pump for the car and sending it to Wes Ingam for rebuilt (at least then I will feel that I can trust it when it returns)

Any other suggestions ? (and thanks for your help and patience over the last week, if you are even over in this direction, you are welcome to go for a rumble in the Monti..._)
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post #34 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-20-2005, 01:00 PM
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So, even with the check valve out (but the check valve seat still in), you didn't get fuel into that barrel when you rotated the pump with the fuel supply pump running???? When you pulled the little check valve up, was there any fuel at all below it down in the bore?

As far as the oil leak goes, I guess that explains why the Logic Section was dry. The leak could be coming from four places . . .

1. The large nut on the bottom right rear of the pump. This is the "well" where the little Cold Start Solenoid hydraulic piston resides. It's got a brass washer to seal it. Feel down there and make sure it's actually there and tight.

2. Another possibility is the rubber grommet that covers the actuator pin for the Fuel Cutoff Microswitch . . . Although I think that'd be a pretty slow leak. How long did it take for the oil to dump?

3. The throttle arm plate (3 screws) on the rear of the pump is loose.

4. The entire Logic Section casting is loose.

Regardless, that oil leak has to be fixed. Running the Logic Section in dust instead of oil will kill it a lot sooner than later.


Well, I think I've taken you about to the limits of my ability to help over the internet. Just want to be sure that all the obvious/easy things were checked before packing it off for rebuild.

While you're waiting, I'd recommend that you go through the whole fuel system and make sure it's very clean, hoses are in replaced, etc. The fuel system guide you downloaded should help, although it's not Montreal specific.

As far as a rebuilder goes, you might contact some of the ones mentioned in the Montreal website over on the Continent to see if they're still doing SPICA rebuilds and what the cost would be. I'd also send Wes Ingram an email and see if he has any suggestions on the problem and if you should send the injectors in also to be checked. I doubt seriously if he has a rebuild on-the-shelf since Montreals are so rare. He'd probably have to wait for your unit and rebuild it rather than exhange. Usually once he gets it, it takes a couple of weeks to get it done. Recently I helped "Rosenmoller" on the BB here get a rebuild from Wes. You should drop him a PM and get his opinion on how he likes Wes Ingram's rebuilds and the customs/duty and shipping cost aspects.

The advantage of a rebuild would be that you know that the pump is going to be good for a very very long time, since you're going to take good care of it unlike the previous owner.

Before removing the injection pump, you'll want to rotate the engine so the timing marks on the injection pump and pulley line up with the engine crankshaft pointer at the "I" (for iniezione, transl. injection) on the crankshaft. I'd also recommend fitting a new SPICA injection pump drive belt when re-installing. Also:

1. Be extra careful when removing the Thermostatic Actuator (T/A). That small pipe is easily kinked, which will ruin it. I'd recommend that you remove the entire T/A and set it aside in a very safe place. Also, you'll want to do a bench check (heat the coolant end of it in hot water and check the extension of the pump end against the spec shee) of it before you send the pump off for rebuild. If it checks bad, it will have to be sent along with the pump for rebuilt also.

2. I believe that the whole pump is held on by a bracket with two bolts in the rear and the six nuts holding the front pump section on.

Drop me a PM when you decide what to do. BTW, what's your first name? Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a machine with knowing someone's name.

Good luck. Don't get discouraged. You're going through what a lot of new Alfa owners go through. Cleaning up and fixing the messes of previous owners. I'd love to have your Montreal, even if it's broken right now. Post us a picture of it.

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Last edited by Roadtrip; 03-20-2005 at 01:05 PM.
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post #35 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-20-2005, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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Hi

I did get fuel into the barrel --- a nice spurt. This was also the case for number 3. (I didnt try it for 5 and 7 as time ran out this evening....but expect the same result)

I am checking into the European based Spica specialists also.

I will also check out the fuel system in full while waiting for the Spica's return. There is also a list of other small jobs to do.

Photo of the car (and me) is at http://www.alfamontreal.info/Montreal/ABoran.jpg

I will probably try to take the pump out next weekend

-Aidan
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post #36 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-20-2005, 04:09 PM
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No blockage in the fuel manifold, it would seem. When you look down into the check valve hole, do you see a little cutout on the edge of the top of the plunger?? When you work the throttle lever on the back of the pump, does that little cutout move a little (indicating that the plunger is being turned)? Also, remove a fuel tower and check valve from a "good" cylinder and compare the positions. Look closely. Do they appear to be the same starting position and move the same as the "good" cylinder?

If good, put a little WD-40 on the check valves, put them back in their respective bores, then the springs, washer(s), and finally the fuel towers. A little anti-sieze compound on the fuel tower threads will keep them from siezing in the future (steel in aluminum, you know). Try again to see if you get some fuel spurting out. While cranking the engine, press on the throttle.

After you get everything put back together, we'll do a couple of other checks and then try a line purge/start again.

In the meantime gather up your info on possible repair sources in Europe. Contact Berhard Rosenmoller as well for his advice on pump repair sources. He may have already done that legwork for you.

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post #37 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-20-2005, 05:53 PM
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just reading this I think the flow to the pumps should be checked again. If the in vs out was reversed it would makes some sence as to why the 2 on the end get some gas and the fist 2 do not.

The flow should go in on the side close to the logic/firewall then there should be a reducer in the output side the side close to the front. check the nipples the one on the output should be blocked up with a small hole in it. If the gas pump has been replaced it is common to have to solder up the hole and drill it with a smaller size to use say a bosh pump.
so the flow should go tank->filter1->pump(s)-filter/regulator(with the light switch)->firewall side of the injector pump with the normal nipple->inside injector pump->restricted nipple->back to a tee on the filter where it goes back to the tank with the gas bypassed in the regulator.

now you have 2 banks so how the gas is split might make a difference if the output of one bank goes to the input of the next then there should only be one reducer on the last one. if filter regulater tees and feed both the inputs then there should be 2 reducer on each output of each bank. BTW I think Roadtrip might have BAR and PSI mixed up? the PSI feeding the injectors is many thousands of PSI. that is why the line is thick steel with just a pin hole.
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post #38 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-20-2005, 07:35 PM
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The way the fuel hoses are routed, I don't think it would be easy to cross them up like you might with a 4c SPICA setup (if you're inlet hose was way longer than it needed to be). Also, the interior fuel manifold on the Monty pump runs across both pump sections internally. As far as the fuel pressure goes, supply should be 7 psi minimum (ideally 10-16 psi) to the injection pump. The injection pump boosts that in the barrels and plungers to 350-400 psi to the injectors themselves, albeit the amount of fuel injected at that pressure on each injection cycle is miniscule. Of course, the amount of fuel pumped by the supply pump at, say 15 psi, is vast.

However, I suspect the reason for the 7 psi minimum is that with less fuel supply pressure, if the injection pump is going fast, the two fuel inlet holes in the barrels arent' big enough to allow enough fuel into the barrel fast enough under such low pressure, hence you get a partial fill. At higher supply pressures the barrels can fill . . . in the tiny amount of time allowed for the fuel to flow in while the plunger is at the bottom of it's stroke. This is why a low fuel pressure car might run ok at very low fuel demand (say idle), but then when climbing a hill or higher engine speeds, the engine will suffer fuel starvation.

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post #39 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 01:16 AM
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even if the hose is in the right place the nipple with the reducer could be on the wrong side. I too have a hard time with 4 plungers slipping. I think it must be somthing more simple that that.

and here is a images I scaned in of gas flow
http://sly.gotdns.com/images/spica.gif
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post #40 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 05:01 AM
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The original fuel supply setup on the Montreals has two three port fuel pumps hooked up in parallel; the third ports being the bypass back to the tank. The fuel inlet at the SPICA pump is on the left rear of the pump, the unrestricted outlet is on the right front and the calibrating oriface is at the fuel tank.

More later......

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post #41 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 08:03 AM
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Restrictor orfice in the tank and two 3-port pumps?? That's interesting. Do you have some documentation on the Montreal SPICA setup, Jim?

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post #42 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 11:59 AM Thread Starter
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thanks John ... I have a diagram of the fuel supply from the workshop manual. I will scan and post it later.

I will check the pump again at the weekend (real work getting in the way) and check the movement. I must admit, with the check value seat in place, the hole is the size of a matchstick (or maybe smaller) so I am not sure I will be able to see into the hole....
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post #43 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 04:10 PM
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Here you go, John. I'll get a hardcopy of the manual off to you in a day or two.
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post #44 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-21-2005, 06:50 PM
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Thanks Jim. BTW, does it say how Alfa numbered it's cylinders on the Monty engine? Is it -

Right
2 4 6 8

1 3 5 7
Left

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post #45 of 97 (permalink) Old 03-22-2005, 04:59 AM
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Off the top of my head, the right side (head 'A') is 1,2,3,4 front to back and the left head (head 'B') is 5,6,7,8. And again if memory serves, one of the two separate ignition systems, although having a single distributor, fires cylinders 1,4,6,7 while the other system fires 2,3,5,8. Don't recall the firing order though. Will post it tonight......

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