Body work. RUST!!!

[AlfaRomeo1750]

Ciao Alfisti,

I have a question for you regarding body work. Recently, I bought a trashed GTV-6 whose lower rockers are rusted, I am talking completely gone below the rubber body molding. Above the molding with the exception of light surface bubbles and one quarter sized hole in the rear wheel arch, everything else is pretty good. The inner rockers and floors are in good shape as well.

With all my other alfas, I have left the body work to shops and professionals only doing small jobs myself. This poor car needs a lot, but has a fire in her belly that pryed my wallet clasp open. Though mentioning money, my love of alfas had to give way to reason as estimates for general body repair and paint are near $2000.00. Now I dont mean to offend anyone, but lets face it, a GTV-6 wont appraise like a Spider,164 or classic GTV, and I dont want to be in the hole right off the bat. I would like to enjoy this car, and grow to love it, before throwing thousands to keep it in my stable.

SO..... I wish to perform the body work myself, and learn how to go about doing it. I have never attempted such a large cosmetic project and would be grateful for any help you experienced alfistis can offer. I have always wanted to learn body repair and that is partly why I adopted this orphan child. This GTV-6 was at the right place, and the right price for my wallet to give up the dough.

My question is, What do I need to do to bring back this fine Alfa Romeo? I have done small body work before, but this car needs everything sanded down and filled. My real concern are the lower rockers, They are there but have lots of holes in them. The structure behind is solid, along with the underneath, so I am not too worried about structural rust, and the wheel arches front and rear are good.

Do I need to cut out the metal and weld in new panels, then follow with the usual bondo frosting? Or can I sand down the rust, prime the metal and tack into place with either sheet metal screws, or a light weld just some body metal over or behind the existing rockers and cover with filler.

As mentioned before, the rockers are behind rubber holding, and the rust outs cant be seen when the molding is in place.

Any body guys out there know how to proceed??? She is a blast to drive, I just want to be sure that my money is spent wisely, as I have three other Alfas in my stable that need attention too.

Thank you for your help..

Regards

AR1750.

71 1750 Spider Veloce
87 Quadrifolio Spider
91 164 S
81 GTV-6

[Bill77]

I would suggest picking up a couple of books on body repair. There's too much to learn to easily describe in a few paragraphs. Also, try reading through this excellent restoration of a GTV, including rust repair.

http://www.alfarestore.com/

The best method of repair is to cut out all of the rusty areas and weld in new metal. Don't be alarmed to find even more rust underneath when you cut away the visible rust. The prep and finishing work can be very time consuming, depending on what level of result you are seeking.

Some people would suggest that it is far cheaper to find a rust free car than to fix a rusty one. This is especially true of the '70s and '80s Alfas that don't have a lot of resale value yet. But, if you want to learn how to do the work yourself and you really like your car, then go for it.

[Bill77]

You will probably get better, more specific advice from BBers if you post a few jpegs of the rusted areas.

[GTD]

Bill said it, a picture is worth...

[AlfaRomeo1750]

Gentleman, Thank you for your replies...

photos will be coming soon..... Until then, just imagine bad rust and lots of holes in just the lower rockers.... Hopefully I will have photos within a day or so.

ciao

AR1750

[PSk]

My reply ... http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showpost...77&postcount=2

Pete

[Roadtrip]

1750 -
I'm confused. What did you think that it was going to cost for the bodywork and paint??

If you found someone that does pretty good work and will put on an acceptable respray for $2000, that pretty darn inexpensive. You can try to teach yourself, but between buying a MIG welder, the supplies, replacment metal, trial and error experimentation, etc etc. I don't think you're going to save a dime by doing it yourself. You're not going to try for a home garage repray, are you?

I think you could save the most money by stripping the trim and/or paint, then taking it to the bodyshop. Or, part it out and buy another that's been cared for properly.

You're never going to get restoration money out of a GTV6, at least right now, nor for the foreseeable future. I've seen many advertised for absurd prices, and, of course, they usually don't sell. They're usually the ones fitted with speed equipment and mediocre bodies. The speed equipment is only going to be a plus for a certain percentage of potential buyers. IMHO, a mediocre body and a hopped up engine tells me that the PO probably ran the you-know-what out of it.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadtrip IMHO, a mediocre body and a hopped up engine tells me that the PO probably ran the you-know-what out of it.

[AlfaRomeo1750]

John,

Thank you for your reply.

However I am well aware of the cost for a body shop to repair and respray a car. I have three alfas in my stable all of which have seen the body guy. My 71 Spider alone cost close to $4000.00, that being the case because the first shop I took it to did a half you know what job and rust reappeared two months later. My 87 quad needed a panel fixed due to a careless parking lot attendant, and for a minor scratch I was quoted $600.00, and shortly my 164 S will get a respray, the price is $1000.00. I have nice alfas because I do things right. SO please dont mistake a desire to do this job myself as a sign of being cheap. I am posting because I dont know, and would like to learn. Everyone has to start somewhere.

$2000.00 was the price I was quoted taking into account that I would be taking the car apart, and grinding down some of the rust areas in advance. Followed by my having to wet sand and polish the car. So it is basically a no frills package. For a car that in monetary terms isnt worth much, I would rather spend my cash on seats, a new windshield, and various other interior parts that need refreshing.

You ask, why then did I buy such a car, Well it has 50,000 original miles with the engine having been overhauled and tuned for performance by Eurotech less than 10,000 miles ago. She is a phenomenal car whose appearance is in need of a face lift. As you said, the PO probably beat the $HIT out of it, but that is okay, she runs and drives well, just doesnt look so good.

So "Saving Money" isnt a concern, proper asset allocation however is. If I do all the body work myself, save for the sealant and respray, the dollar figure comes down to $700.00 which is a bit easier to swallow. I have access to a MIG welder, and the panels are straight so metal isnt hard to come by. Its just time consuming. So what is my time worth, If I can do the job reasonably well, and the rust is hidden behind the lower skirts, I say why not try to do it myself.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Besides I never intended to "SHOOT" the car in my garage. A beautiful paint job requires a Paint booth, and someone who knows how to shoot car paint. I neither have the spray gun nor a booth so I had always intended to let someone else spray the car.

You said it yourself, I am never going to get any restoration money from a GTV-6 nor would I try. I just want a sweet looking car to drive that is fun, and unique.

Sorry to be so harsh John, I know you are trying to help. Your reply just made me sound like I was being cheap.

Regards

AR1750

71 1750 Spider Veloce
87 Quadrifolio Spider
91 164 S
81 GTV-6

[Roadtrip]

Not cheap, but IMO, $2k is unrealistic. Your previous post said that the $2k was for "total" bodywork and paint, and I assumed you meant soup-to-nuts, not doing a bunch of the work yourself.

If you have access to the tools needed and basic skills (and maybe an experienced friend to ask advice) then it's making more sense. It's been a while since I had a car painted, but even $700 for paint sounds pretty low, even with some prep work done.

As far as the garage spray is concerned, a red-neck rattle-can job wasn't what I was referring to . . . I've seen some jobs that were gun-sprayed at home and it showed.

Post some pictures and document the process for the guys who are thinking of delving into more complex bodywork skills at home.

[PSk]

Some wise @rse once said to me that if you do a budget for any rust, or restoration work, to multiply your highest estimate by 3 and then you will be close(r).

The only time I have ever had a car painted professionally ... I had to get them to fix dents in the front guards (that they had replaced without talking to me!), I had to hunt around their workshop trying to find parts they had removed from my car, etc.

Never again.
Pete

[AlfaRomeo1750]

John,

Sorry for the miscommunication with regard to my shop quote. I very much appreciate everyone's help.

As for the $700.00 spray quote..... its from a friend of a friend, strictly at cost. That is why I would have to do any wet sanding...etc....

Thanks Again..

Ciao

AR1750

[John M]

Hey AR1750:

Congrats on the new ride and your desire to get involved in bringing her back to life.

On your question....rust is cancer. And like cancer you have to cut it out and then take the chemo therapy. So in regards to the Alfa....replace the rocker panels with new metal as well as the wheel arch that has a hole. Trust me on this....where you see holes....its just the tip of the iceberg.

Panels will run probably in the neighborhood of $600 per side for the rockers....the wheel arch...maybe $100. But unless you want to do this over and over again....they have to be replaced. No amount of grinding on them will save them if they are perforated. What you don't see is all the rust chewing away on the inside. And as rust does...it will find a way back out...and not too surprisingly rust seems to love to pop through fresh paint and really tick you off.

I would suggest that you let the professionals handle this one unless you can get a buddy over there to really teach you the proper way to weld those panels on. Those welds can rust too if not done right. Not to mention that you really dont have any good breaks in the body to hide the welds when replacing the rockers....so they just about have to be perfect or it shows. Same with the wheel arch.

I think your time would be better served stripping the trim, lights, grill, emblems, bumpers, etc off the car and getting her ready for the booth. You could probably learn very quickly how to block sand the car in prep for the booth too. But I would really hesitate taking a grinder to her on your own. What you really need is someone who knows bodywork to come help and supervise you. Maybe even pay someone to train you on your car in the evenings for a small fee....a few free brews and some dinner.

Best of luck with her.

Best Regards,
John M

[John M]

I thought I would add one more thing to think about. I just spent $1250 to respray my 92 Spider and its hardtop. Complete repaint in three stage pearl white. The $1250 just represents materials. And it was the premium dupont line from self etching primer to clear coat. So be sure to ask questions like....what grade of paint is this....is this the premium stuff...etc. If you want it to last, don't settle for the cheap stuff that will chip in no time.

Best Regards,
John M

[HeavyMetalAlfa]

My $2.02 worth [ everythings gone up ! ]

I say DO IT !! Don't listen to the "they aren't worth much" or "you'll never get your money out of it" opinions. If you slow down or stop the rust and get miles and years of enjoyment from the car- that is the pay back !! Besides, GTV6s are gaining in value everyday. If we let restorable GTV6s go to the junkyard there will be a serious shortage in years to come. Can you imagine someone junking a GTV or Giuliettta because of rocker rust ?
Putting metal patches over holes is not hard. doing proper repair is pretty involved, as when there are actual holes in the metal showing, there will be a lot of not quite rusted thru areas not showing. The key is to remove as much bad metal as possible, weld in good metal and then the REAL important step- coating the repair work from inside as well as outside !! If you weld in metal and don't undercoat properly, the rust WILL come back soon. Most restoration failures come from this. On wheel arch repair- weld in the metal then go inside the trunk and behind the rear interior panels and spray the *#!%^+ out of it with rust preventative, If water and air cannot get to the metal, it will not rust. On rocker repairs you have to drill holes from in back of the panels, get the undercoating system with "wands" to poke in the holes to spray the inside, then put the little plastic caps in the holes. Again, coating BOTH sides of the repair area is mucho important !!
Also, riveting on a piece of metal is bad, you have to use a lot of Bondo to blend the repair and Bondo has a tendency to absorb water and bubble out. Th