Alfa Cup - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 12:03 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,681
Alfa Cup Standing Start?

The purpose of this thread is to discuss, post videos, post pictures, and make suggestions to help make the Alfa Cup more enjoyable to participants and spectators.

With that said, what would Alfa Cup participants think about giving standing starts a shot? It would make for an interesting start because a lot of the full race cars up front have a tall first gear while a lot of the cars in the middle to back have stock gears. Just a thought and looking for opinions (good and bad).

Last edited by italcarguy; 04-23-2007 at 03:45 PM.
italcarguy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 10:09 AM
Registered User
 
geh458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 2,517
While I don't yet run the Alfa Cup races, I sort of like this idea. The only draw back I can see is if during this drag race type start, one of the car up front brakes something (clutch, transmission, driveline) it could get ugly real fast.

As an alternative to a standing start, how about an inverted one (faster qualifiers in the rear)? It would make the racing better (more passing) at least for a couple of laps.

Just a thought.......

Gifford
'72 Super --> SOLD, '67 GTV --> SOLD
geh458 is offline  
post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 05:41 PM
Registered User
 
AR4me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 4,087
Gifford,
You could run the risk of sand-bagging in qualifying
Though, if we could fit two point awarding races into every event (like DTM) and revert for the 2nd race, that could be fun... Or, start the cars in opposite order of the Alfa Cup overall standing...

We could replace the Sunday morning qualifying with a 1st race (starting in reverse order of the overall standing), and update the overall standing before the 2nd race, and again start in reverse order.
Jes

87 Milano Verde - daily driver -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- SOLD
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- SOLD
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car - Running again after 3 year hibernation...
(Repeating what I suggest or do, is at your own risk - be critical)
AR4me is offline  
 
post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 07:23 PM
Registered User
 
darth dino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Westlake Village, CA
Posts: 933
standing starts

this could make things really interesting for participants and spectators. only thing better would be a classic Le Mans start

while i don't participate, i would be concerned that this would place a lot of extra strain on the drive train. especially the clutch and giubo

Dionisio di Fiflos
73 GTV - 81 GTV-6 *R.I.P.* - 65 Mustang GT Vert - Honda Hawk GT - Yamaha FZ6
darth dino is offline  
post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 10:24 PM
Registered User
 
Racer X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 297
Garage
The standing start would be a blast, but I think the inverted start could be even more fun.

When I used to race Karts, one of the clubs used a pea-pick for the first heat. For the second heat, a coin toss determined if we would use an inverted start.

My most memorable race of all time was starting 18th and finishing 3rd. I was passing someone every lap!

Jeff 1969 GTV 1750 Silver 1969 GTV 1750 Rosso Amarento 1964 Sprint GT Bianco 1967 Super Grigio Metalizzato
Racer X is offline  
post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 01:14 AM
Registered User
 
spannerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Adelaide Hills
Posts: 382
Get into it guys. We run standing starts at our local club circuit sprints. Drag race to the first corner. Good fun.

[COLOR="Red"]So many Alfas so little time![/COLOR]
____________________________________________

80 Alfetta GTV 2.0
70 1300 GT Junior
83 Giulietta 1.8/2.0 (Track car)
73 Mercedes 280 SE (Big Track car!)
79 Alfetta Sedan (Rally Car - RIP)
=======================================
spannerman is offline  
post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 08:04 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Laguna Hills
Posts: 103
Don't leave Race Group out of the fun! What about an inverted standing start race for one of the later practice sessions with everyone involved?

67 GTV - old racer
97 Miata - new racer
Philip Guiral is offline  
post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 08:41 PM
Registered User
 
twoliterlover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 1,347
Talking Standing start is STUPID

Gentlemen: Alfa cars are NOT designed to be drag cars. I suspect a standing start would gut half of most of the field. Good for the people who can get work doing repairs for stupid people. Alfa cars need to "spool" up and get going before they hit things hard. I can't believe anyone would suggest that when there are so many better options. Sounds like a guy who my client finally discovered was trying to drag race his Wankel powered RX-5. Can't deny it had lots of horses with double supercharger? turbo? but NOT bottom end and he blew it three times before client got wise and refused to honor the warranty. His law suit did NOT succeed. But, this is just my opinion. Maybe you don't like your Alfa?

[B]JAY NUXOLL [/B][EMAIL="
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"], seriously Alfa diseased and ancient OLD Two Liter Lover, put together Seattle area's Northwest Alfa Romeo Club in 1965, and still feebly tries to tend a teeny sacred flame to his serpent mistress in the [B]ALFA G'RAJ MAHAL[/B], a home garage temple with more Alfa cars and parts than he dare list because of the disapproval of his shamed and chagrined family. (425) 641-2600.
twoliterlover is offline  
post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 09:42 PM
Registered User
 
Fortis 621's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA
Posts: 83
It's an interesting idea but I think it would be too hard on the drivetrain. Also, if someone gets excited with his/her race clutch and stalls the car, it could be dangerous for cars that are behind the stalled car... especially for cars that are two or three cars behind the stalled car.

I love the idea of having multiple race. BMW club runs a qualifying race, a sprint race (for points), a fun race (for bragging rights) and a mini endurance race (one hour race with a ten minute mandatory pit stop for fueling). The points for the endurance is double that of a sprint race. With small number of races (three this year) offered by AROSC, I think the club should serious consider having more point races. This will make it more interesting and worth while for the racers. Have a point race on Saturday afternoon, a fun race on Sunday before lunch (inverted grid), and finish the weekend with another point race in the afternoon (the grid will be based on the results of Saturday race). This way, if your car breaks down Sunday morning, at least you'll be going home with some points.

Colin
Fortis 621 is offline  
post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-19-2007, 12:53 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 579
No standing starts--everything else is fair game

I was waiting for Bruce Colby to chime in here but since he hasn't let me say, I don't think the club will go for a standing start race or Le Mans start. It's just too dangerous.

The other ideas, multiple races, inverted starts, mixing the two groups (Alfa and non Alfa) etc, are all fair game. We've done inverted starts before and often this decision is made in real time by whoever is setting up the grid. The guys who run the events these days (Greg Nelson and Dennis Fibrow) are not Alfa drivers and are happy to turn over the job of setting up the Alfa grid to one of the Alfa people. I think Fabrizio set up the grids at Buttonwillow. I guess it's up to Bruce to designate who that would be although as originator of the Alfa Cup Anthony might be first in line here.

One of these times the stars are going to line up (no other competing events) and we are going to get 15-20 cars in the Alfa Cup. I think we were over 10 at Buttonwillow.

Doug Bender
alfabender is offline  
post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-19-2007, 05:27 AM
Registered User
 
spannerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Adelaide Hills
Posts: 382
You americans seem to not be able to think beyomd your own shores. The rest of the world has been doing standing starts since the second car was built. All of the racers you read about on this forum from those places that aren't america have cars that dont blow their gearboxes into a million bits every standing start. They are all Alfas with basically the same running gear.
If you remember, they are made in Italy and I am sure they do standing starts there.
I'm sure with all the wonderful things that USA pruduces, someone somewhere could build a clucth that can get a small 4 cylinder car off the line and survive for a few laps.
This isn't about just having a drag race. Personally, I think drag racing is for people whos attention span isn't greater than 8 seconds. Maybe it's about the idea of trying something different.
C'mon guys. Don't knock it un till you have tried it...

[COLOR="Red"]So many Alfas so little time![/COLOR]
____________________________________________

80 Alfetta GTV 2.0
70 1300 GT Junior
83 Giulietta 1.8/2.0 (Track car)
73 Mercedes 280 SE (Big Track car!)
79 Alfetta Sedan (Rally Car - RIP)
=======================================
spannerman is offline  
post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-19-2007, 09:24 AM
Registered User
 
Bruce Colby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 913
I've been watching this post and I guess it's time to say a few things.

1. There will be no Le Mans starts due to well recognized safety issues. Frankly, its difficult for me to believe anyone would even suggest this.

2. I think standing starts are highly unlikely to take place at our events because they are generally considered less safe than rolling starts. They are also tough on the equipment. I, for one, am not interested in chewing up my drive train just for a few seconds of raw excitement. The Competition Board has discussed standing starts in the past and there has never been any interest in doing it. However, I will bring it up again at our next meeting.

3. Inverted starts can elicit sandbagging in the qualifying races but they also tend to put the less experienced drivers in a "high pressure" situation which can be avoided. They are, however, not out of the question. We have done them in the past and we may do more of them in the future. We generally use our "best guess" for starting positions on the qualifying race grid. We could invert this very easily but we would probably give drivers the option of starting at the back if they felt more comfortable doing so.

4. Running multiple points paying races at an event sounds like an interesting idea and it would provide a mechanism to avoid sandbagging issues with inverted starts. However, there are some practical considerations which may be transparent to people who aren't volunteering their time to put on the events. The volunteers, most of whom also enter the events, would have to spend even more time girding cars and scoring races. To someone who hasn't done it, it may seem like this shouldn't take much time but it does. Also, the additional race time would have to come at the expense of practice time but I think this could be worked out. That said, I like this idea and if we can figure out an equitable way to do it, well no doubt give it a try.

Bruce Colby - Street = '69 1750 GTV/TS; Track = '65 SGT/TS, '89 E30, '72 914/6
gone to new homes
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- '71 Jr. Z, '69 1750 Spider, '62 Spider
Bruce Colby is offline  
post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-19-2007, 10:07 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 333
Send a message via Yahoo to Norman Silverma
There will be no Le Mans starts because of the age and condition of most of the drivers ( cars also - youngest car in competition is probably 20, average around 30 some over 40). Picture me, Art Russell, Bruce Colby, etc. running to a car, squeezing in and trying to get belted up. Anthony would have a lap and a half on us before we were out of the pits.
As far as standing starts, the problem as I see it, is not piling up on busted cars in front of you, but running over the guys who are push starting the cars in front of me.

Inverted starts are great. Especially for me since I will almost always be pole and I have a pretty good bit of Slide & Wide practice under my belt.

Norm Silverman
____________
Il Presidente AROSC
65 Giulia Spider Veloce
65 Giulia Ti

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Norman Silverma is offline  
post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-19-2007, 03:44 PM
Registered User
 
spannerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Adelaide Hills
Posts: 382
I have changed my mind about sugesting you guys doing a standing start. I dont think your wrists can hande the effort of those first gear changes. But we will never know........
Ive seen race cars from america on TV before, Have you learned to turn right yet?

[COLOR="Red"]So many Alfas so little time![/COLOR]
____________________________________________

80 Alfetta GTV 2.0
70 1300 GT Junior
83 Giulietta 1.8/2.0 (Track car)
73 Mercedes 280 SE (Big Track car!)
79 Alfetta Sedan (Rally Car - RIP)
=======================================
spannerman is offline  
post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 12:04 AM
Registered User
 
Alfistaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 81
Standing starts may be more interesting for the spectators, however from a driver's point of view they are too risky. I believe it's best to stay away from them.
Alfistaa is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
Replace with
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome