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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 02:51 AM
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Why are they risky. Isnt that one of the ideas of motorsport? Taking a few risks. With a few minor exeptions, every circuit race in Australia (and for that matter, the rest of the world)has a standing start. Its all about knowing what to do in that situation. Why should you guys be any different?
It makes me very annoyed that a minority says "we wont do it, its too dangerous" when they havn't even tried it, as well as having the evidence that it is not more dangerous than other aspects of the sport.
When our races start here, an emergency vehicle is able to follow the field around for the first half a lap or so to deal with any situations quickly. A standing start allows this to happen. I have even been involed in a serious shunt, a few corners into the race, where this vehicle was needed. If it wasn't there, things could have been a lot worse for me.
Properly prepared, your driveline can take it.
All my race cars run standard drivelines and I have found it well up to the task of several years of punishment. All the failures I have had have been while moving.
C'mon guys, give it a go. you might end up pioneers for you sport in USA. And at the same time have a s++t load of fun.

[COLOR="Red"]So many Alfas so little time![/COLOR]
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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 10:50 AM
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anthony,

do the standing starts by all means.

when i was in europe, nearly all the races I attended were standing starts. they tend race rain (more like monsoon conditions) or shine too. lots of people here pack their things up and dont race if it sprinkles here.

rolling starts are so SCCA,indy,Nascar-ish like to me.

the clutches should stand up without any problems this day and age.

ps sorry for the hi-jack, I have a sparco fire bottle system that need servicing. any idea where i can get this looked at?


ciao
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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 02:27 PM
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I usually do not disagree with Anthony. Maybe it is my age but the original Can-Am and Trans-Am are within my living memory. Some of the more vivid moments came during disasterous standing starts that occured all too frequently. Varying skills and equipment left many drivers seriously injured. I can also remember that it was the less skilled and more poorly funded teams that fought for the standing starts. I have pictures from a drivers meeting when the organizers took a vote amongst the drivers to see if there should be a standing start or rolling start. The hands in the air voting against a standing start included Gurney, Hill, Ginther, McLaren, Hall, Donahue and all the other true "pros". To them it was too unpredictable and chaotic. Small mental mistakes or equipment faults led to major problems. Of course, if you can "jump" the start then you might be able to overcome skill and equipment shortcomings. Or not. The best 22 drivers in the world (aka F1) manage to muck it up too often as it is. We do not need any unnecessary screw ups interfering with our ability to get reasonable insurance rates or track dates. My 2 cents.
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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 03:15 PM
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My dear Spannerman:

Standing starts are inherently more risky because the likelihood of a mid-pack stall increases the chances of a serious shunt. Rolling starts effectively eliminate this risk. The Alfa cup is not a professional series. It's simply a bunch of Alfa guys out for some driving fun.

There is plenty of risk in motorsports. Adding to it by going to standing starts will not improve the driving experience. It will simply raise the chance that a few Alfas will have their lovely bodywork altered for the worse.

BTW, have you ever done a rolling start? For the driver, the experience is essentially the same as that of a standing start because all the cars are traveling at essentially the same speed before the green flag is dropped. Those who manage the start better, or have better gearing, or more power will still have to dodge the slower starters ahead of them. Many changes of position occur at the start and into the first turn regardless of the type of start.

As for the issue of driveline and clutch, there can be no denying that a rolling start is easier on the vehicle. Again, we are not a professional series with factory mechanics waiting at the boxes ready to change a clutch in 30 minutes. We are out there to drive our cars and have some fun. I don't know about the other drivers, but I'd rather not touch a wrench the entire weekend. Adding to the risk of having to pull out my tool box does not not add to my level of fun.

So, you Europeans might like to think you are superior, better, or whatever you think, by doing your standing starts. We just do it smarter.
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 03:38 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you everyone who posted their thoughts. I've been thinking of ideas to make the Alfa Cup a little more different and this was one of the things that I've been meaning to ask participants for some time now. It looks like we'll stick with rolling starts and I'll move down my list of things to help make the series better and lure more participants.

I feel a reverse grid is just as risky as a standing start. Usually people who start in the back tend to be less experienced or have mildly prepared cars which could create an uncomfortable situation for them in turn 1.

Last edited by italcarguy; 04-23-2007 at 03:44 PM.
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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italcarguy View Post
I've been thinking of ideas to make the Alfa Cup a little more different and this was one of the things that I've been meaning to ask participants for some time now.
As a fun race, I once participated in an Australian Pursuit race. Using the lap times from the sprint race, each car (slow car first... that's you Norm ) is sent out from the hot pit. Each car is distanced by the calculated time difference for a 20 minute race. This really made the last lap very exciting. On the last lap, coming down the straight, we had all the cars bunched up for a photo finish.

Colin
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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 08:12 PM
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Now that would be fun.

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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 10:01 PM
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I feel a reverse grid is just as risky as a standing start. Usually people who start in the back tend to be less experienced or have mildly prepared cars which could create an uncomfortable situation for them in turn 1.
I'll chime in. Seems the rolling starts are settled, and I, too, agree. Not necessarily more fun (never done it), but certainly more risky.
As far as the reverse grid, I don't believe it is so much more risky. Listen to Norm.
But it would make it more rewarding to grant points for the qualifier race. Just call them heat one (Saturday) and two (Sunday). How to grid the first? Just the same way it has been done. The best they fairly can. The second heat we can still decide, reverse gridding or not. And then average the points for the winners.

Hope to be there for the next Alfa Cup.

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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-24-2007, 06:21 AM
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Dear Mr Alfistaa.
I'm sorry to have sugested the notion that your cars are capable of a standing start or two. I forgot that american race car technology is still based in the '60s. Left hand turns, rag tyres, 4 barrel carbies, arc welded chassis, exploding clutches,etc.
As for being a smarter, I have to remind you that last time I looked, Australia was not part of the EU and in fact is in a completely different hemisphere.
Unfortunatly, I'm not a multi millionaire racer with a pit crew and a spare car ready to roar into action. I am a fulltime golf car repairer and I do a bit of race car stuff in my shed at home after hours. All learned from my own racing experiances and listening to others. I'm even building a '70 mustang for historic racing for a guy and guess what? It can do standing starts. Maybe I could make a fortune in the states teaching them a thing or two.
All of the club level racing guys here can deal with standing starts both mechanically and mentally. Maybe thats why usa, with 250million people and all that money, cant produce a decent F1 driver or even a car. Your premier open wheel cars are made in England.
We do have an open mind to changes to the way we race. We adopted the american style pace/safety car system to control the field when needed.
We do run reverse grid races occasionally. Our top level touring cars tried it a few years ago but there was too much carnage. Some race series reverse the top 10. That seems to work and even produces a few suprises.
The reason why we dont do rolling starts is because they are so boring. Can you imagine an F1 race with a rolling start? I dont normally fall asleep until lap 3.
I hope that one day you try something different just to see what happens.
I'm off to go dirt rallying in my Mercedes.

Mr Fortis 612
They are called handycap races and are great fun and guess what.....
we do them from a standing start.

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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 10:34 AM
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Good grief. *** difference does it make to you what kind of start we run at a regional club event in California?? Ever consider there is more involved in the decision than just car (and mental?) preparation?

And what do your pointless generalizations about the US have to do with anything? What does F1 or Nascar have to do with this? Or are you just trying to make a few friends in your spare time over here?

And as to your inevitable reply: yes, i appreciate you are just trying to improve my life experience; yes, Ozzies build way better race cars; yes, Ozzies are all mental giants that are dialed in for the extreme stresses of standing starts, and yes, you are just way more bitchin' than us.

Which begs the question: why waste all of your time on a regional Cal board with a bunch of idiots? Spend your time hanging out on the Ozzy forum with the smart guys! Or is it that they don't want to play with you either?
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 04:02 PM
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Good grief. ....(snip)
So what's your take?

JM
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 04:18 PM
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Don't get riled up by a self-named anthropomorphized tool, folks.


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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 04:21 PM
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I think we are all trying to understand why you do rolling starts when it appears most of the rest of the world does standing starts. The only place I've ever seen rolling starts is on TV.

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 04:27 PM
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For what is worth our race group Sovren is going to try out one race session at our May Spring Sprints event. By the the way the folks that lobby for this all have raced in New Zealand in the winter and think it the way to go?

John


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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 04:32 PM
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For what is worth our race group Sovren is going to try out one race session at our May Spring Sprints event. By the the way the folks that lobby for this all have raced in New Zealand in the winter and think it the way to go?
Try out what? Standing or rolling start? Lobby for what - standing or rolling?
Jes

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