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post #76 of 84 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 11:03 AM
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exit track signal

Hey guys,

At the 10-12-08 Race at WSIR I had an issue with at least one person pointing to the left to indicate that they are pitting.

I confused it for a point by and got a surprise!

Do we have a standard way of signaling intention to pit, like the fist in the air like many other organizations?

It might be worth a brief mention in the drivers meeting at a place like WSIR...
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post #77 of 84 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob burgoon View Post
Hey guys,

At the 10-12-08 Race at WSIR I had an issue with at least one person pointing to the left to indicate that they are pitting.

I confused it for a point by and got a surprise!

Do we have a standard way of signaling intention to pit, like the fist in the air like many other organizations?

It might be worth a brief mention in the drivers meeting at a place like WSIR...
This is going to happen if someone that's exiting has their hand out the window and they are off the racing line going through turn 8. They then go wide out of 9 causing what you are describing. When I plan on exiting the track at Willow, I stay on the racing line through 8, and the braking area, and I stay out wide through nine (hopefully me speed is down enough that I don't go off into the dirt), and let everyone behind me go to the inside, and hope they don't came to wide on the exit of 9.


But, to bring up another issue, I noticed at this event a couple of guy in the race group waring Class M (Motorcycle) helmets (you can tell from the design of the chin guard and the eye opening). I thought these were only allowed in the Intro group?

Gifford
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post #78 of 84 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 02:07 PM
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AROSC Time Trial / Race Safety Issues

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Originally Posted by jrclem View Post
As one of the co-founders of the AROSC on-track program, and an author of the original National Competition Code, let me chime in...
There was a HUGE argument back in the day over wether or not to require roll bars in open cars... we insisted that they be required in our AROSC code, and Tom Sutter & I spent a 15 hour long National BOD meeting defending that position... we won. It is likely that that victory has saved several lives in the ensuing 35 years.
A 5~6-point harness can be installed without ANY mods to most cars... SNAP OUT OF IT!!! This is a NO BRAINER!
If you are the "Responsible Party" in organizing any event you don't want to be the one making that phone call to the next of kin explaining that your loose rules (made in the name of attracting more entrants) have cost a life. THIS IS A STUPID DEBATE!!!
And this, dispute over roll bars and safety, is exactly why ARA withdrew and formed their own organization among other things. Nothing has changed over 20 years, the same discussions, same fights, same issues, etc.

AROSC, or a specific portion of it, is unhappy with AROC rules and how they dictate that track events must be run based on the insurance carrier that they have selected as a non-profit corporation that umbrellas the chapters.

I don't know the answers and am not about to try and solve them, but I see more splits and disagreements in the future over the same issues that have not been satisfactorily resolved or addressed.

Remember it takes members to race; without members to race rules aren't important, so I would suggest trying to seek resolution to the issues so that you do have members to race, both on a local and national level.

Cheryl
(Not an authority nor SME on anything, just PATSYF)
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post #79 of 84 (permalink) Old 10-17-2008, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob burgoon View Post
Hey guys,

At the 10-12-08 Race at WSIR I had an issue with at least one person pointing to the left to indicate that they are pitting.

I confused it for a point by and got a surprise!

Do we have a standard way of signaling intention to pit, like the fist in the air like many other organizations?

It might be worth a brief mention in the drivers meeting at a place like WSIR...
We don't require "point-by's" and "pit-in" hand signals in either TT or race groups. Hand signals are a courtesy we like to see our drivers extend but they are not a requirement. TT drivers are required to pass cleanly and safely on the left on designated straights; race drivers are required to pass cleanly and safely wherever they elect to do it. Every organization I've encountered seems to do things a bit differently. This is partly why driver's meetings are so important. We need everyone to know the set of rules we are operating under.

In our drivers meetings we try to make it very clear that it is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to make a clean, safe pass. In the situation you describe, especially in race group where drivers are dealing with arm restraints and/or window nets, it's easy to visualize how an arm out the window might be confusing and it's exactly this kind of confusing situation we are trying to avoid. So, when you run with AROSC, whether a driver in front of you provides no hand signal, a raised finger or a clenched fist, your responsibility is the same, as an overtaking driver, you must make a clean, safe pass. If you're not sure you can do that, you should wait until you can.

As far as T9 at WSIR goes, I'd say the chances are very good that a driver intends to pit if he/she has an arm out the window in any part of the turn. T9 is an intense turn where drivers usually keep both hands on the wheel if they are doing anything other than slowing to get into the pits. Still, there's no guarantee of this so it's important to drive accordingly.

Bruce Colby - Street = '69 1750 GTV/TS; Track = '65 SGT/TS, '89 E30, '72 914/6
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post #80 of 84 (permalink) Old 10-17-2008, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pat Braden View Post
And this, dispute over roll bars and safety, is exactly why ARA withdrew and formed their own organization among other things. Nothing has changed over 20 years, the same discussions, same fights, same issues, etc.

AROSC, or a specific portion of it, is unhappy with AROC rules and how they dictate that track events must be run based on the insurance carrier that they have selected as a non-profit corporation that umbrellas the chapters.

I don't know the answers and am not about to try and solve them, but I see more splits and disagreements in the future over the same issues that have not been satisfactorily resolved or addressed.

Remember it takes members to race; without members to race rules aren't important, so I would suggest trying to seek resolution to the issues so that you do have members to race, both on a local and national level.
I have two comments:

First, I'm not sure why you think AROSC is unhappy with AROC rules. We, AROSC, run our track events without any interference from AROC and without being subjected to any constraints by the AROC insurance carrier. We run our track events according to our own rules and we independently procure insurance to cover those events. Consequently, there is no reason for us to have a problem with AROC rules.

Second, this thread was initiated for the sole purpose of addressing AROSC Time Trial and Race Safety issues. This is a very important topic and I think it is reasonable to expect people to post here accordingly. I appreciate your interest in safety but if you want to discuss club politics, this thread would be better served if you would find in a more appropriate thread for that discussion. If you can't find one that fits your needs, you can always start one yourself.

Bruce Colby - Street = '69 1750 GTV/TS; Track = '65 SGT/TS, '89 E30, '72 914/6
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post #81 of 84 (permalink) Old 10-19-2008, 09:22 AM
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AROSC Time Trial/Race Safety Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Colby View Post
I have two comments:

First, I'm not sure why you think AROSC is unhappy with AROC rules. We, AROSC, run our track events without any interference from AROC and without being subjected to any constraints by the AROC insurance carrier. We run our track events according to our own rules and we independently procure insurance to cover those events. Consequently, there is no reason for us to have a problem with AROC rules.

Second, this thread was initiated for the sole purpose of addressing AROSC Time Trial and Race Safety issues. This is a very important topic and I think it is reasonable to expect people to post here accordingly. I appreciate your interest in safety but if you want to discuss club politics, this thread would be better served if you would find in a more appropriate thread for that discussion. If you can't find one that fits your needs, you can always start one yourself.
Apparently, the time at the track over the years has impaired your hearing and visual acuity; I'm assuming both the decibel level and the fumes have contributed equally.

One, I responded to a post from one of your illustrious racers who was instrumental in getting people interested in the 1st ever GTA open-wheel racing in Chicago at the convention this year, and then himself withdrew. But beyond that his post very clearly made reference to the fight with AROC at the board of directors meetings that he and Tom Suter participated in over the roll bar issue. Is that not a safety issue as is the 5-point harness requirement, the way cars are flagged to pit etc.? He opened the topic, all I did was expand on it and furnish additional information in that regard as well as the observation that nothing has changed over the years....same arguments.

Being independent leads to creativity, generally; but when it comes to the same points that can't be satisfactorily resolved over time, maybe the solution is using one set of specified rules that everyone follows, mandated by the National organization. It's a choice of being a team player or not.

Secondly, as recent as early this year some of your local membership were complaining about the amount of dues they pay to AROC without any real benefit except the measly dues split they receive since they do not use the major advertised benefit of dues: the insurance benefit, even though they are an active racing chapter.

My suggestion, while it may have alluded you, was to try and figure out what doesn't work for you with AROC National insurance, cost, coverage, etc. In other words, why are you forced to purchase your own insurance coverage? I'm pretty sure AROC has no clue what they're doing wrong or why you're forced to purchase your own. My guess, is that you're racing in a way that AROC doesn't cover. Did it ever occur to you, that solving this problem might also benefit other chapters that find themselves in your same situation and would like to do things better.

Brian Shorey has indicated previously that he would be willing to talk to anyone about why you can't use their insurance or choose not to.....with safety being the primary priority and concern.

Cheryl
(Not an authority nor SME on anything, just PATSYF)

Last edited by Pat Braden; 10-19-2008 at 09:35 AM.
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post #82 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-12-2011, 01:08 PM
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I have been asked to tech a 94 E36 325i convertible for the street school this weekend. The Comp Code requires a rollbar; this car has the stock BMW "popup" rollbar behind the back seats. Is that good enough? This is a new one to me. Thanks
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post #83 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-25-2011, 08:01 PM
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vehicle tech policy 2011

Am I the only one who [today] cannot seem to access the tech-form intended for this May's Buttonwillow event?
http://www.aroschpd.org/events/2011/may2011_tech.pdf

And while I suspended my Alfa-club membership recently, I still am hoping to participate and have a suggestion regarding self-tech. But maybe there is one aspect of the technical/safety inspection that could be discussed.
1. Some seasoned drivers [most obvious are AROSC-Licensed 'race' drivers] seem to be fully capable of self-tech.
2. Some begining or 2nd/3rd/4th time HPDE or TT participants probably are not yet ready for self-tech and will not attempt this.
3. There are a group of in-betweeners who largely know their vehicle really well and have paid/watched a handful of times while their vehicle has been tech-inspected by a 3rd party. THIS is the issue that could be addressed.

The AROSC drivers/race schools could cover these issues and essentially approve those individuals who want to begin using self-tech forms. Maybe HPDE students could be 'certified' for 8 or 9 months, TT-students could be certified for 18 months, and race drivers for 36 months or more . . .
Its just one idea, and I hope it triggers a little discussion.

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post #84 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-25-2011, 08:26 PM
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The link works for me.
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