AROSC Time Trial/Race Safety Issues - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #61 of 84 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 08:28 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Bruce Colby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by AR4me View Post
Bruce,
To promote and encourage safety at the AROSC track events how about offering point credits for safety features? E.g.:
- Fuel cell: -2 points
- Full cage: -2 points
- Fire suppression system: -2 points
- HANS device: -2 points
Some of them even make somewhat sense, generally, as they add weight. Just a thought...
Jes
Interesting thought. Let's see what some of the other Alfa drivers think at the next event (WSIR, Mar 22 & 23).

Bruce Colby - Street = '69 1750 GTV/TS; Track = '65 SGT/TS, '89 E30, '72 914/6
gone to new homes
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- '71 Jr. Z, '69 1750 Spider, '62 Spider
Bruce Colby is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 84 (permalink) Old 03-15-2008, 11:01 PM
Registered User
 
Fortis 621's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Colby View Post
Interesting thought. Let's see what some of the other Alfa drivers think at the next event (WSIR, Mar 22 & 23).
I think this is a great idea! Compared to other racing organizations, AROSC is very "laid-back" in the use of safety equipment. This is a great way to encourage the use of modern safety technology without "forcing" the drivers to do so.

Colin
Fortis 621 is offline  
post #63 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 06:39 PM
Registered User
 
RKT ROY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lomita, CA
Posts: 90
Relaxing Harness Requirements for Novice TT

Gifford told me to put this topic here...

I agree that relaxing the harness requirements will allow us to attract more drivers to AROSC TT events.
I've tried to recruit people to come out with us, but many of my friends don't have harnesses and won't come out because of this requirement. These are responsible folks, not hot heads, and they have nice cars and don't want to wreck them. I've run with these guys at different HPDE events and they would be great additions to our club. These other groups also put safety first and I've witnessed no incidents (except the owner of Spring Mountain crashing his helicopter outside of turn 7). The other groups I've run with that don't have a harness requirement are:
Corvette Track Days sponsored by Spring Mountain
National Corvette Museum HPDE
SpeedTrialUSA
Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club
OpenTrackRacing
and TCRA.

Yes. TCRA. In March, joint with AROSC, for one day (Saturday before Easter Sunday) before I knew that AROSC would have let me pay for one day. So I paid TCRA to run, sharing the track with AROSC cars and harnessless TCRA cars. If we run joint events with TCRA, we already have the problem of cars without harnesses sharing the track with us. The only difference is that these people are paying their entry fees to TCRA. At the Sept 13,14 Spring Mountain event, I can probably get my DigitalCorvettes.com friends to come out (Spring Mountain is a favorite track with vette guys), but if they don't have harnesses, I'll tell them to sign up with TCRA. So I'll be at the track with my Vette buddies, but TCRA will get the money. I'd much rather that they come as AROSC registrants, and maybe they'll come out to the Oct Willow Springs event with us.

Something to consider.
Roy.

RKT ROY
Navy Blue 2001 Corvette Coupe
RKT ROY is offline  
 
post #64 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 06:45 PM
Registered User
 
AR4me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 4,087
It probably will attract more people, but I think it is the wrong direction to take - more comments here AROSC TT Buttonwillow June 28/29 before Gifford re-directed the discussion here
Jes

87 Milano Verde - daily driver -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- SOLD
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- SOLD
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car - Running again after 3 year hibernation...
(Repeating what I suggest or do, is at your own risk - be critical)
AR4me is offline  
post #65 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 07:07 PM
Registered User
 
RKT ROY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lomita, CA
Posts: 90
Good points Jes in both threads. Certainly individuals can choose to add safety equipment to their cars regardless of the requirements. We do still have the issue of shared run groups with TCRA at our joint events.

So for these events drivers currently have a choice:
Run with AROSC or run with TCRA is you have a harness.
Run with TCRA if you do not have a harness.
Choose not to run because TCRA cars with less safety equipment will be sharing the track.

It still remains an individual's choice as to what to do and how much safety equipment they want given that accidents will happen. With our current rules, people without harnesses have no choice but to run with another group if they still want to run on a track without a harness.

I personally like having a harness in my car. But that is my choice.
Roy.

RKT ROY
Navy Blue 2001 Corvette Coupe
RKT ROY is offline  
post #66 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 09:06 PM
Registered User
 
jrclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 525
As one of the co-founders of the AROSC on-track program, and an author of the original National Competition Code, let me chime in...
There was a HUGE argument back in the day over wether or not to require roll bars in open cars... we insisted that they be required in our AROSC code, and Tom Sutter & I spent a 15 hour long National BOD meeting defending that position... we won. It is likely that that victory has saved several lives in the ensuing 35 years.
A 5~6-point harness can be installed without ANY mods to most cars... SNAP OUT OF IT!!! This is a NO BRAINER!
If you are the "Responsible Party" in organizing any event you don't want to be the one making that phone call to the next of kin explaining that your loose rules (made in the name of attracting more entrants) have cost a life. THIS IS A STUPID DEBATE!!!

[FONT=Arial Black]OldMaster[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Rick Clemente[/FONT]
jrclem is offline  
post #67 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 11:07 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SF Gay Area
Posts: 2,534
Would it be possible, at some tracks, AROSC could have a special novice group where, while the harness requirement is dropped, cones are put at 1 or 2 sections of the track to slow cars down? Passing zones should also be restricted to the front straight only and stricter rules should be enforced for any sort of off track excursions, tailgating or going sideways too often. For the novice group, no times will be recorded and there will not be any timed session. This group should strictly be an open track session for novice drivers.

My thought was, AROSC could create the novice group where the safety rules could be viewed at the same level as the street performance driving school.

Drivers who want to be timed and go faster need to fit a 5-point harness and join one of the Time Trial run groups.

This idea may sound silly to some, but I thought I would just put it out there.

1996 155 V6, Squadra Tuning, RJR cams

Last edited by 75evo; 06-25-2008 at 11:10 PM.
75evo is offline  
post #68 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 11:39 PM
Registered User
 
Alfistaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrclem View Post
As one of the co-founders of the AROSC on-track program, and an author of the original National Competition Code, let me chime in...
There was a HUGE argument back in the day over wether or not to require roll bars in open cars... we insisted that they be required in our AROSC code, and Tom Sutter & I spent a 15 hour long National BOD meeting defending that position... we won. It is likely that that victory has saved several lives in the ensuing 35 years.
A 5~6-point harness can be installed without ANY mods to most cars... SNAP OUT OF IT!!! This is a NO BRAINER!
If you are the "Responsible Party" in organizing any event you don't want to be the one making that phone call to the next of kin explaining that your loose rules (made in the name of attracting more entrants) have cost a life. THIS IS A STUPID DEBATE!!!
I agree. Relaxing the safety regulations is not the way to go. Anyone willing to gamble with their life to avoid drilling a few small holes does not have their priorities straight. I believe that there are other ways of boosting the number of entrants to our events.

The club could do any or all of the following:
1) Offer the sale of gift cards.
2) Offer discounts to new participants.
3) Offer a freebie for early registration. - Free tech inspection, a cap, a t-shirt...
4) Offer a discount to repeat entrants.
5) Offer the sale of a one year pass.
6) Offer a Saturday only option.
7) Schedule dates more evenly throughout the year.
8) Advertise our events better. - flyers, cards, website...
9) Accept credit card pyments.
10) Streamline registration.
11) Reverse prizes - winners pay $100 for 1st place, $59 for 2nd, $29.95 for 3rd place.

Ok, now you guys think of something.
Alfistaa is offline  
post #69 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-26-2008, 11:29 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 47
In regards to "coning" the track

I have ran with SCCA doing Solo2 events at Buttonwillow where they put cones on the track to slow cars down. There was much debate on weather or not it was safer to have cars slow down, or more dangerous to have cones on the track because you would end up with more off course excursions due to the placement of the cones. plus there were silly rules about going off track and getting booted from the event...but thats a whole different issue.

I think that having harnesses is a good thing. I always praise AROSC as a safety first club and our strict rules show it.
vrinner is offline  
post #70 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-26-2008, 11:59 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1
Alfa Driving school certification

Bruce,

In approx. 1997 my wife (Laurie) and I participated in an Alfa Driving school program at Willow Springs. One of the driving instructors was David Fisher whom my wife worked for before he was tragically killed on the race track.

We have relocated back to our New England roots and want to do some vintage racing with my 1933 MG L2. I'm a member of VSCCA and If I had a copy of the certificate that I beleive we were given, could likely run in VSCCA events without attending their driving school which always seems to be run when I can't attend.

Perhaps you could forward this on to someone who might keep old records. I can most easily be reached at nowlanc@comcast.net

Thanks for any assistance you are able to provide.

Regards,

Chris Nowlan
Chris Nowlan is offline  
post #71 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-26-2008, 02:45 PM
Registered User
 
geh458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 2,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by 75evo View Post
......My thought was, AROSC could create the novice group where the safety rules could be viewed at the same level as the street performance driving school......
They already offer such a group, it's called the "INTRO" group. Here's a description: Intro Group at Track Events

Gifford
'72 Super --> SOLD, '67 GTV --> SOLD
geh458 is offline  
post #72 of 84 (permalink) Old 09-25-2008, 08:47 PM
Registered User
 
gday's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oceanside, CA
Posts: 209
Roll cage construction question

So I bought this weld-in rollcage kit for a gtv6 from autopower. It's designed to weld-up to their roll-bar which I already had, which seemed like a good idea at the time. Both sections are designed to fit a car with a full interior (although why anyone would want to weld this cage into a car with a full interior is beyond me). Needless to say that when installed in a car with no interior, the fit leaves something to be desired.

So, here's the question: Is it more important to have the "upright" section of the front cage section perfectly vertical, or is it better to have a much closer fit to the "A" pillar with the "upright" raked to the rear a couple of degrees? With this kit, I can't have both unfortunately. Knowing how weak the A-pillars are in GTV6's I'm tempted to have a nice close fit with the upright raked aft a little. My thinking is that although the cage woulld not be quite as sturdy when an impact comes directly from above, in a rollover the A-pillar (and subsequently the roll-cage) would hit first, and absorb most of the energy. It'll be fully guseted, and supported by 2 door-bars. This is the arrangement that makes most sense to me, but I was hoping to get some input from some of the tech inspectors before I weld it in.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Graham
'86 GTV-6 daily driver
81 GTV-6 racecar project
'67 Spitfire racecar (GP)

"if your car handles like it's on rails, you're probably not driving fast enough" ~ Ross Bentley
gday is offline  
post #73 of 84 (permalink) Old 09-25-2008, 09:15 PM
Registered User
 
jrclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 525
I say rake it. The cage will dramatically out-perform the original structure, even at a very weird angle... even leaning back, with longitudinal bars (connecting the front hoop to the main roll bar) it will provide mucho support.
I run my GTV with only a roll bar with back braces, door "side crash" bars, and over the knee cross bar... no front cage hoop... saves about 90#... and will be crash safe 99% of the time. Only a submarine impact with a flying car is unprotected... in my 5 decades of race watching I have never seen such a crash... but that doesn't say that it cant happen...

[FONT=Arial Black]OldMaster[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Rick Clemente[/FONT]
jrclem is offline  
post #74 of 84 (permalink) Old 09-26-2008, 09:44 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrclem View Post
I say rake it. The cage will dramatically out-perform the original structure, even at a very weird angle... even leaning back, with longitudinal bars (connecting the front hoop to the main roll bar) it will provide mucho support.
I run my GTV with only a roll bar with back braces, door "side crash" bars, and over the knee cross bar... no front cage hoop... saves about 90#... and will be crash safe 99% of the time. Only a submarine impact with a flying car is unprotected... in my 5 decades of race watching I have never seen such a crash... but that doesn't say that it cant happen...
I'm thinking about the same type of bar.

How did you do the door bars? Any pictures?

MR2 Spyder l Miata
Silversprint is offline  
post #75 of 84 (permalink) Old 10-03-2008, 11:20 PM
Registered User
 
fatbillybob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 271
The GTV6 has longish doors. If you have the room you could support the A piller with a vertical tube from the top of your nascar bar. This can also be done with X bars but hortizontal nascar bars give you more options. Also if you gusset the A piller tube to the A piller you dramatically increase the strength and could do away with an A piller support tube.
fatbillybob is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
Replace with
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome