AROSC Time Trial/Race Safety Issues - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #31 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-19-2006, 09:19 PM
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I need to read up more on the anti-submarine belt and how it is supposed to be moutned, because I got completely lost (and just ignore that part, I think I need to look at some diagrams tonight..if I cannot figure it out from there, then I'll ask for some help).

As far as the shoulder straps go, what do you mean by containment? My seats have two certical bars that are attached to the head rest, so in other words, my seat and head rest are two seperate parts. If I routed the two shoulder belts inbetween the head rest bars, I think they could only break free if the headrest comes off or the bars are broken by the force of the shoulder belts pushing against them. Is this a legitimate concern?

I will add a picture of what my seat looks like.



Verde Recaros are very much like this seat. The headrest can rise above the via two notched bars. The headrest cannot come off the seat by the way ( I just went out to the car and tugged as hard as I could on the headrest to seperate it from the seat).

Thanks for your help,
Grant

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post #32 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-19-2006, 09:46 PM
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Basically you are using a "stockish" OEM seat with racing harnesses which is really a NO-NO. But many have done it and many more will. I do not know Paul's or the clubs opinion on this I am just one data point but I tend to err on the safe side. First your seat was never designed to be used as a race seat. So here is what to do to kind of fudge it and let Paul deside it it is club legal. First route the shoudler straps between the posts of the headrest like you say. this will contain the belts and minimize your ability to be spilled out in a crash. Second buy a T or V sub strap to be sued as a 6 pt parachute. The rear of the subs can be mounted to the RR and LR seat anchor points (not so great) or the LR and RR lap belt anchor points (better). Then you sit on the V strap and plug the bucle end into where your 5th pt sub would hook into on your cam. This avoids the over the front seat cushion 5th pt and still gives you decent anti-sub function which is really hip control of the lap belt. Se this picture of this exact set-up.
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post #33 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-19-2006, 09:49 PM
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Sometimes you can buy shoulder straps with an "H" sewn in-between which also prevents belt dumping off your shoulder when used with stock seats or you can do something like this....
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post #34 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-19-2006, 11:11 PM
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Grant - I cut a hole in the fabric of my Recaro to allow the 5th (anti-submarine) belt to work in the way it was designed to.
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post #35 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-20-2006, 09:13 AM
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Sometimes you can buy shoulder straps with an "H" sewn in-between which also prevents belt dumping off your shoulder when used with stock seats or you can do something like this....
That adapter is bad news.
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post #36 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-20-2006, 08:52 PM
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That adapter is bad news.

Agreed! But look at the slope of the seatback. That is the really bad news. These seats should not be used with a harness. But it is done daily. You have seen my chicken car and you know what I think about seats and harnesses etc...
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post #37 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 01:10 AM
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Thanks for the help so far. I'm gonna read some more online and I'll be sure to post if I still don't understand.

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post #38 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 03:29 PM
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How do I get a copy of the tech sheet for my mechanic?
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post #39 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 05:06 PM
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Tech Sheet

AROSC shops "should" have a blank copy.
If it is lost then I think Paul Ellis is the supplier.
When I was the Tech Guy I was the keeper of the forms.

Paul Blankenship AROSC
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post #40 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 06:23 PM
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AROSC shops "should" have a blank copy.
If it is lost then I think Paul Ellis is the supplier.
When I was the Tech Guy I was the keeper of the forms.

This is not for a AROSC shop. I want to give the sheet to my mechanic so he can make sure all the required items are in order. Then I will take the car to an AROSC tech.

Also I have several friends that will be running with AROSC for the first time interested in the tech requirements.

We don't need the actually sheet but only the items checked on the sheet.
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post #41 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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This is not for a AROSC shop. I want to give the sheet to my mechanic so he can make sure all the required items are in order. Then I will take the car to an AROSC tech.

Also I have several friends that will be running with AROSC for the first time interested in the tech requirements.

We don't need the actually sheet but only the items checked on the sheet.
Download a copy of the AROSC Competition Code. It has all the information spelled out in it. Because it's not an AROSC tech inspector you're dealing with, they need the whole thing. If they have any questions, they should contact Paul Ellis.

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post #42 of 84 (permalink) Old 02-26-2007, 07:09 PM
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I have a couple of questions about roll-cage construction that I'm wondering if someone can answer:

When welding a cage together, he competition code seems to strongly recommend arc welding, and specifically heliarc welding. Does this exclude MIG and TIG welding, or are they all considered part of the arc family? If it does exclude them, could anyone tell me why?

the other question I have is...I intend to use the autopower U-weld cage kit. This kit builds a cage, using their bolt-in race-roll bar as a base. On my version of the roll-bar, the horizontal and diagonal supports are removable, and thus are bolted onto the rollbar with grade 8 bolts. Is this sucfficient to pass tech for race-group, since these supports are not welded in? If they were to be welded onto the bolt attachment plates, would this be sufficient to pass tech? I've been warned that even though the bolts are quite solid, they allow for a certain amount of movement, and so I will probably be welding them to the bar, as well as welding up all the joints which are now bolt-only to help chasis stiffness, but want to make sure it'll pass tech before we start welding.

Here's a link to the U-weld front cage kit:
http://www.autopowerindustries.com/rollcages.asp

Here's a link to the Race Rollbar baseunit It also shows the construction of the bolt-in sections:
http://www.autopowerindustries.com/rollbars.asp


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Graham

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post #43 of 84 (permalink) Old 02-26-2007, 08:27 PM
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Arc welding typically refers to Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW) and Gas Tungsten Arc Welding (GTAW). These are also known, respectively, as MIG (Metal Inert Gas) and TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) welding, and also as, again respectively, "wire welding" and "Heliarc welding". There are many other kinds of arc welding (Variable Polarity Plasma Arc Welding, Metal Active Gas, Twinwire, Laser/GMAW hybrid, Coaxial Through-torch Laser/GTAW hybrid...) but these are the most common.

Most of the better safety cages are put together with TIG, but many are also assembled with MIG welding. I have done both with success.

Most likely, the rules are meant to dissuade people from building cages with stick welding, gas welding, or brazing. While excellent joints can be made with these technologies, they are much less common for safety cages and can be much more difficult to accomplish.


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post #44 of 84 (permalink) Old 02-27-2007, 08:52 PM
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When welding a cage together, he competition code seems to strongly recommend arc welding, and specifically heliarc welding. Does this exclude MIG and TIG welding, or are they all considered part of the arc family? If it does exclude them, could anyone tell me why?
Mig is as good as TIG. The quoted reason that tech likes TIG is that you can't make as bad a working tig weld as mig weld. A bad tig just falls apart. it is like electric gas welding so requires more coordination than mig which is like spiting toothpaste. MIG is fine for cages as long as proper penetration is used to properly join metals. You can have a decent looking poor mig joint that will pass tech but not if you wreck. I like mig for cages because I know a good mig from a bad one and it is easier to weld upside down and in tight places which is very good for a converted streetcar. Lots of people look down on mig and like tig. Chevy z06 vettes are mig welded. A proper mig is as good as a proper tig. Any bad weld is just bad. Beware the mig weld that looks like bird poop. A very often overlooked cage building issue is proper joint mitering. Joint miter is just as important as proper welding. Beware large welds that may hide more miter joints. IMO, you should just make the cage out of DOM tube through and through. Many store bought cages are not designed to maximize interior space and if you weld bolted sections you don't get the strength to weight to rigidity of a solid unmolested piece of tube. Also, beware of adding in things like NASCAR bars with bolt-in anchors. There are many problems with NASCAR bars in that most are designed very poorly and may not perform as you intend. A NASCAR bar is much harder to do right than a simple X-bar and the X-bar may give you more protection than you think. Here is a sample joint miter and what a good mig weld can look like on my rollcage. I'm a self taught welder with tig and mig.
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post #45 of 84 (permalink) Old 02-28-2007, 06:53 AM
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When I learned welding in 9th grade in junior high in Virginia (1974), "arc welding" meant stick welding, which is the only kind we were taught. That's no longer the case? When was the Comp Code written and what kind of welding do we think it had in mind at the time? Granted things have progressed a lot over time, but I'm getting at what the Code writers contemplated.

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