AROSC Time Trial/Race Safety Issues - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #16 of 84 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 06:27 PM
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Stefano,

I think Graham is right about everything except moving the OEM designed locations for the OEM seatbelt. OEM 3 pts do not work like race harnesses and the designers have factored in relative differences in sizes for acceptable performance. If you do the harness bar and newly welded B-piller locations the only question is if the B-piller is up to the job. One compromise you make with a harness bar is movement of the bar and harness in a crash to unknown locations especially if one ot both B-pillers is effected in a crash. Second if the bar is not straight because you need clearance because you have long legs then you add another moment onto the b-piller requiring extra welding to the b-piller to gain the proper support.

It sounds like you guys are talking about a 4 pt roll bar as opposed to a 6 pt+ roll cage for 300 bucks autopower from I/O port racing. That is 4pt and will not really offer you anything in the A-piller but your head is in the B-piller area so it is O.K. as the roof folds down to the steering wheel. Also, read closely they make their roll bar out of ERW. IMO all cage features should be DOM or chromoly. SCCA I think no longer even allows ERW but you need to check.

I have a hard time with the cheaper autopower 4pt since it is ERW. But that is the one you want because it has no harness bar. Once you mount seats and trial fit everything prefab harness bars like on the $350 unit are rarely in the right place and that "right place will be even more critical if you use a HANS in the future. So If you are going to buy prefab get a 4 pt roll bar w/o harness bar and have that added in custom. Then you can get the perfect location of the bar relative to your seat position, shoulders etc... You will have to see if autopower will make the cheaper 4pt w/ DOM tube.

The only way to get protection into the A-piller that Graham talked about rusting is to go to the next level which is a 6 point cage that has its own A-piller and side head bars to go to the rollhoop. The one advantage of doing the 6pt is that if you later start racing wheel to wheel it is really easy to attach window nets to the roll cage. Also, a good 6 pt cage will have some kind of door bars for side protection. All this will help to stiffen a chassis especially if it is welded. Even with lots of bolts things move. The big negative is the more bars you get the harder it is to dual use the car. Bolt-in bolt-out side bars are a big help in this regard. Another big positive in a 6pt cage is you can connect the seat to the cage in the future if the cage is all welded. This elevates the safety level another notch. Some better 6pt cages have dash bars that are high enough to not be in the way of your knees but support not only the A-piller and side door bars but make the best place to attach interior sidenets. There is no end to this that's why racing makes big fortunes small fortunes. At some point you will draw the line. The cost of the orthopedic surgeon putting pins and plates in a compound fracture of just an arm will be more than all the safety gear you can build or buy.

Especially since you are dual using the car make sure you pad your bars with the proper SFI padding that feels like it is hard as a rock. This stuff is specially designed for impact at speed and will not melt off in a fire. The cheap stuff feels great when you dink your head on it while reaching for a briefcase but will do nothing for you in a crash.

By the way tubing lesson: Tubes can be mild steel ERW or DOM. DOM is drawn over mandrel and is seamless so does not split when it yields. ERW is electrically resistence welded meaning it has a weak point seam along it's length. Chromoly is a lighter stronger harder steel that is less forgiving in fabrication and is more likely to fracture rather than bend like mild steel DOM. The properties are slightly different and some like chrome some like DOM. I'm a DOM person. Diameter and thickness of tube used for your cage is specified in AROSC comp guide for your car weight and varies from other clubs so build your cage for the most restrictive group you will run.

Well that's a lot of stuff hope it helps and not overwhelms.
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post #17 of 84 (permalink) Old 11-06-2006, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AR4me
Stefano,

My suggestion would be to leave your NICE GTV6 alone and use it for the street, and find an inexpensive GTV6 and turn it into a track car. Then you don't need to worry about ruining the interior etc with a roll-bar. Also, the extra wear on the track would not wear down your nice GTV6.

Though, a 2nd or 3rd car may of course be a practical problem. Don't ask me how I know

Jes
Jess: Thanks for your suggestion but for now another Alfa would be a really big practical problem
I know it is a compromise to try to combine a daily driver with a fast track car but at the moment I do not have a choice. Mom said I could only have one
BTW Today at the best of France and Italy car show I was told of a used roll-bar for sale that came out of an Alfetta GT ( should fit ??) and I may be able to afford it will see...

Fatbillybob: thanks a lot for your extensive explanation on the safety aspects of the different kind of roll-bars. if I decide for a roll-bar I would probably have to go for the cheaper one, at the moment I really can not spend too much, even if the surgeon argument was very effective Do you have any idea how much the " good stuff" for padding the full roll-bar will cost? And should I install it before or after I mount the roll-bar? Thanks!

Stefano
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post #18 of 84 (permalink) Old 11-06-2006, 01:51 PM
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"Today at the best of France and Italy car show I was told of a used roll-bar for sale that came out of an Alfetta GT ( should fit ??) "

And that race roll bar has a winning track record in Class D.

Paul Blankenship AROSC
76 Alfetta GT Time Trials and Wine Tours; 88 Milano - Daily Driver
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post #19 of 84 (permalink) Old 11-06-2006, 02:25 PM
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And that race roll bar has a winning track record in Class D.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Paul! Please forgive me if I forgot to mention that "little" detail

Stefano
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post #20 of 84 (permalink) Old 11-08-2006, 09:04 PM
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Jess: very effective Do you have any idea how much the " good stuff" for padding the full roll-bar will cost? And should I install it before or after I mount the roll-bar? Thanks!

Stefano
Only pad what you will hit and allow for body stretch in your harness so you can hit further than you initially think.

Use SFI 45.1 spec padding only http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/home.asp?categ=175

pad the cage after you mount your seat and place the cage and harness so you can see the likely candidates for padding.

Hope that helps
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post #21 of 84 (permalink) Old 11-12-2006, 01:18 AM
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[QUOTE=fatbillybob]Only pad what you will hit and allow for body stretch in your harness so you can hit further than you initially think.

Use SFI 45.1 spec padding only http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/home.asp?categ=175

pad the cage after you mount your seat and place the cage and harness so you can see the likely candidates for padding.

Hope that helps[/QUOTE

fatbillybob: Thanks for the link and the advices! If I get Paul to make me a "Holiday price" for his used roll bar I should have some money left to buy the padding
Stefano
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post #22 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 06:23 PM
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Where do you guys usually mount the fire extinguisher? Does the fire extinguisher need to be a certain type, or can we just buy one at kragen?

Thanks!

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post #23 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 06:44 PM
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Where do you guys usually mount the fire extinguisher? Does the fire extinguisher need to be a certain type, or can we just buy one at kragen?

Thanks!
TT&race general instructions on every event sign-up sheet says "Fire Extinguisher securely mounted within driver reach". The old comp code says "cockpit mounted 2.5lb automotive BC fire extinguisher properly charged". So I would ask Paul Ellis or go with combine the two...2.5lb BC unit within reach. Do NOT use plastic mounts. A good way to mount is on the passenger seat front hold down bolts and use a metal quick release strap to hold the unit. No Plastic. South Bay fire extinguisher in Redondo Beach has what you need. Thay have in the past also sold me just metal straps. Some auto parts stores have them too.
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post #24 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 07:17 PM
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Thanks, I saw that information arleady.

So what is an "automotive BC" extinguisher? So you mount the extinguisher with the passenger seat in place too?

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post #25 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 10:00 PM
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Thanks, I saw that information arleady.

So what is an "automotive BC" extinguisher? So you mount the extinguisher with the passenger seat in place too?
Yes go to kragen and look at the unit. It needs to be 2.5lb capacity or higher, rated for B and C class fires. It could be ABC but needs at least B and C. And yes bolts to same place at front seats with seat installed. You need to fab or have fabricated a simple metal bracket to go between the seat anchors and then attach the metal quick release on to the metal bracket. This is done because in a crash a loose unit can fly around and kill you or roll into an unaccessable place when you need it.
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post #26 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 11:46 PM
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Grant,
I know a lot of people have the fire extingusher mounted in somewhat hard to reach places, thinking "ah, will never need it" Trust me, you want it within easy reach - been there! In your milano, take out the passenger front seat and mount it in front-rear orientation on the left rail. I have it that way in Roxanne, and it is real easy to get to (fully strapped in).

Practically, any type of house hold fire extinguisher will do - they are typically ABC. I got a box with two from Costco - one for the house, one for the car (back when I was tracking the red milano).
Jes

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post #27 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 11:52 PM
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On my GTV6 I mounted the extinguisher behind the passenger seat. I drilled two holes through the floor, primed, and added some big fat fender washers as baking plates. My thinking was that should it come loose I would have some warning with it banging around in the back before it worked its way into the front cabin. The main thing is that you need to be able to reach the release strap with your harness fastened as tight as you'd have it while on the track. Billybob gives good advice, and is very right with the metal strap. If you can get a bracket with a double strap, then so much the better. You really don't want an extinguisher beating on you coming into turn 9 at wsir. That'd wreck your whole day. If you have spare cash and can't find it elsewhere, IOport racing have double metal strap brackets, and the right kind of extinguishers. the extinguisher you can get pretty much anywhere (lowes, osh, home-depot, kragen, etc). A good bracket is hard to find. Of course Halon is better yet.

Graham
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post #28 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-19-2006, 07:41 PM
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Thanks for the info on that you guys!

Another thing, to use a 5 point harness, will I need to buy a racing seat just for time trialing? May I use the stock Recaro that came in my Verde with a 5 point harness? It doesn't have the holes for the straps, but I've seen some people route the harness between the two vertical bars that hold the headrest in place.

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post #29 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-19-2006, 08:47 PM
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Does your recaro seat have a sub strap hole? If no then no 5pt. You cannot safely use a 5pt by bringing the sub strap over the front cushion. You can use the shoulder straps through the headrest area. Not ideal but it works. If you do not have shoulder holes or have the shoulder straps contained they will slip off in a crash and you will die. If you don't have the sub hole you can use a 6pt parachute set-up for your sub strap. Most 5 pt cams or latches can take a "T" or "V" buckle sub strap into the 5th point on the cam or latch. This is not all that comfortable on the "boys" but it works.
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post #30 of 84 (permalink) Old 12-19-2006, 08:50 PM
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Although you need to ask Paul Ellis the AROSC rule on how your 5 or 6 pt should be mounted. What I posted above is what I think for minimum safety. I do not think 5th pt sub over the front cushion helps prevent anti-submarine and most crash tests prove that. It is also well known that shoulder harnesses on stock seats with no containment slip off in crashes. That's one reason why OEM 3pt belts cross over your chest.
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