New HP Driver Ed program discussion

[sidewaysalfa]

EDIT: Wed Oct 28 7:30am
I am starting a thread so we can toss out ideas, comments, etc about our new High Performance Drivers Education (DE) held with Time Trials.
AROSC HPDE
A summary of the program:
- Get new drivers onto the track without having 5/6 point belts.
- Give them classroom time before each track session
- Always have an Instructor in the car, either driving or a passenger untill the Instructor is comfortable with letting them out on their own. Usualy late on Sunday for 1 practice session.
- DE cars run on the track with Run Group 3, our slower group that also has Time Trial Novice drivers.
- DE will not be timed

We, AROSC, now have 2 events completed and I think some of us (me included have also done DE with other clubs.
I will start by trying to remember stuff we discussed at Buttonwillow and now on line.

1. DE cars should not be in the Timed Run group. If only 1 DE car is slow it becomes a "moving chicane" to cars working on a fast, timed lap.
2. We have to get the DE students to use their mirrors and then give a point by when they are being passed. Some help (another set of eyes) from the instructor will help that.
3. I/we have to develop a better classroom outline geared for the DE program. I am used to 50 minute classes from our School. For DE there is only about 20 minutes a class. Gotta get some visual stuff to make up for that.
4. Have DE class 2 run groups before they are on the track (class during run group 1, DE runs in Group 3). We lost some laps and created unnecessary panic by running some classes too long.
5. For 1 day entries, Saturday only. Coming in Sunday puts out a real slow, inexperienced driver with faster cars.
6. Possible: DE first session separate from Group 3, for the first session on Sat (steal time from all other Groups). Use this time to warm them up

[Alfapwr]

I'll be the first to chime in:

I agree that the DE drivers should not be in the timed runs. They have no "investment" in getting a good time. I never got a clean lap. When I tried to pull into the hot pit lane to ask for more space I was passed ( with no point by ) by a black BMW M coupe almost causing an accident. They (and other novices) also need some SERIOUS instruction on point by's. Being an UTTER NOVICE on my first track day I paid close attention to the rules. I found many times where point by's were not given ( even when shown the passing flag ) or were given at the wrong location - I was twice pointed by in the bus stop by an MR2. I do like the suggestion that was given that if you are in the leading car you point up to the rearview mirror with your right hand to indicate that you see the person wishing to pass and will point them by at the proper place.

As far as the classroom, things went much more smoothly when the discussions happened during group 1. One of the problems is that the announcements cannot be heard inside the clubhouse. It seems strange that there are no speakers inside.

One more thing perhaps a little off topic is the lack of gridding for the run groups. Could a little time be found to grid us by time to avoid faster cars behind slower cars ? I would be happy to assist in organizing this.

Dan

[Slaysman]

I think we had about 7 or 8 DE entries this time. Great for getting new people interested in the sport, but I can see how a bunch of slow cars on the track can be a PITA for the timed runs. With the low turnouts we have had for the last year or more, we need entries to be able to have events. One thought I have is pushing more Group 3 people into Group 1. Since we have only had 15-20 people in each group recently, I can shift of the experienced TT entries into group 1. Instead of 20 & 20 in 1 & 3, we could go 25 & 15 or similar. I can only go so far with that because a number of people share a cars.

Is the problem mainly in the timed run session, or are there also problems in the practice sessions? Easiest would be to drop the DE cars from the timed runs, or squeeze in a 15 minute session for them alone. Alternately, put them all in a cluster at the end of the timed run grid. We could possibly go back to gridding the cars for the timed runs, which might help all around, as just randomly sending TT cars out will likely stick faster cars behind slower ones.

Don't want to step on any toes, but we used to have the driver's meetings at 8 AM, and were on the track by 8:30-8:45 AM. I get there at 7:15-7:30 to get registration done, and we usually have 95% of the people processed by 8 AM. Maybe that is another thread...

Terry

[sidewaysalfa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slaysman Is the problem mainly in the timed run session, or are there also problems in the practice sessions? Easiest would be to drop the DE cars from the timed runs, or squeeze in a 15 minute session for them alone. Alternately, put them all in a cluster at the end of the timed run grid. We could possibly go back to gridding the cars for the timed runs, which might help all around, as just randomly sending TT cars out will likely stick faster cars behind slower ones. Terry

[Andrew]

Agreed. Fair enough to let them in Group 3 during nontimed runs.
* Keep DE out of timed runs.
* Grid by lap times from previous session for timed runs (all groups).
* Separate cars by a few seconds more going onto track for timed runs (all groups).
* Instructors please stress in strongest terms to DE drivers to (1) put X on their car, (2) use their mirrors and do point-bys at earliest passing zone, and (3) move over and let faster cars by on the straight. Some DEs were dogs everywhere but the front straight and would not let [much] lower-powered cars by there.
* If there's a way to segregate DE entirely that would be best, but I realize giving them their own track time would give everyone, including them, less track time. I'd give up 15 minutes' track time per day not to have to deal with them.

Thanks for starting the discussion Paul.

Andrew

[Andrew]

Forgot to say this, is not strictly a DE issue. If we use the dogleg at BW, it alleviates some of the problem because the back straight allows passing. While I like the bus stop config better, it means there are no passing zones for what must be more than 50% of the track. That's a long way to fume behind a first-time track driver who hasn't learned to shift his M Coupe yet (accordingly to uncorroborated rumors believed reliable by govt sources).

So maybe do DE sessions at BW only if using the dogleg config?

Andrew

[Philip Guiral]

I've been racing with this club for 30 years and it's had a stellar safety record. As a result we've got a reputation as a good/safe group to run with. The DE group is a great idea will become an important financal addition to keep our events going. This group includes complete novices and experienced drivers that in some cases enter this group in order to get track time while circumventing our safety requirements for other groups.
I think that if we let a DE driver out by themselves without the same saftey equipment we require of the time trial group, we are asking for trouble. My student at Willow Springs was a novice with a 400hp Porsche Turbo. He improved tremendously but on the second day I told him I could not let him out by himself and he had no problem with that. He still felt that 2 days of personalized instruction was a bargin without doing the last driving group on Sunday.
I would suggest that DE may not be the right venue for a novice to be let out alone on at high speed track. Let them start out at our driving school at the Streets for their first time alone on a track.
If a DE driver is experenced and seems ready to go out alone, they should have done the time trial group with the proper safety gear.
I submit these thoughts with all due respect to those that started this program. It's successful and growing and a tribute to your hard work.

[Silversprint]

Currently I think the AROSC DE is only attracting novice drivers who are looking for instruction and limited track time. I'm not sure if it was meant to attract intermediate and Advanced drivers running with Speedventures or Redline.

I run DE track days with several other clubs and also host some private events. I have not run the last two event with AROSC so I am not really familiar with how the AROSC DE group is run. I have helped setup and run DE track days with several other clubs. Most of these clubs have 15-20 drivers that have never been on a track before per day.

DE drivers can range from completely novice drivers with no prior track experience to pro drivers in 700hp street cars that are not race prepped. It is difficult to place all these drivers in one group. The fast aggressive drivers will become frustrated as they are held up while the really slow guys will be pushed at every corner by a faster car. Some of the DE drivers have no intention of ever race prepping their street cars will continue to run DE group even when they are faster.

Other clubs usually run the Beginner run session last. This gives the maximum time for instruction before the first session. Basic instruction about the flags, on track behavior and what NOT to do. There is very little driving technique instruction before the first session.

The first session is lead-follow for several laps progressively getting faster. Most novice drivers are lost on track so they really need to learn the track at a slow pace before going green. This may be tough to do if running a combined TT and DE group. Also this is a waste of track time for experience DE drivers.

How are the TCRA signup that don't have TT prepped cars placed in the AROSC run groups?

[verdegrrl]

Yes, it was frustrating dealing with the DE drivers. I would be willing to give up 5 minutes from each session to make both my group, and their group more stress free. If some are experienced but just not with the AROSC, then it shouldn't take long for an instructor to evaluate them and move them into the next group up.

Gridding with some eye to lap times by Sunday would be very nice. I know I appreciate having clean laps without having to pass others, or wait until I can let faster cars by me. It's no fun to drive through the mirrors while someone is breathing down your neck and some people can get quite flustered.

A lead-follow would be most educational for DE folks.

Paul and I touched briefly on a more formalized curriculum for DE participants and we will discuss that in greater detail.

[verdegrrl]

Oh, and one of the other clubs we sometimes run with use a double checkered flag. The second checkered is at a half way point on the track and thrown the same time as the one at the start/finish. It really speeds up getting folks off the track so the next session can start.

[fatbillybob]

While I'm not privy to all the reasons for DE my guess is:
1) injection of new future blood
2) and therefore control escalating costs

I'm sure you all could get clean laps at a significant increase in your weekend cost. I'm also sure that if the cost went up $100 for the weekend even fewer people will participate and the track fees would be paid and then less cars on track. There is always a compromise. Instead, I think DE is a great way to go. I think Phil is onto something when he talks about having some guys on track with safety gear and some not with safety gear. Alfa school is a great place and huge fun. Maybe the club could offer a discounted school fee (maybe 50 bucks off) to guys who do a DE with us before going to school. I think the fun of school would hook them for sure. I think I've done race school 4 years in a row and it is one of the most fun weekends of the year.

If clean laps are an issue with alfaclub just try some of the other local clubs which allow many more cars on track. We had 70 entrants for the whole weekend? Some clubs I've run triple that! With alfa you really have something unique and good here.

Another thing the club could do is take the fastest time for that car for the weekend instead of just counting the last sunday session fastest lap. This way drivers will not get their undies in a bunch about clean laps in the critical last session. We are on transponders anyway so it should not matter and in a whole weekend a driver should be able to get at least one clean lap and a decent time.

[Racer Z]

My two cents worth are as follows:

- I was opposed to the DE thing only because of the lack of safety equipment in the cars.
* But, now I see that the DE class is being handled in a good way and this is a good thing.
* Keep re-evaluating the DE Class protocol.

- I have read a lot of good views by drivers with much more experience than me.
* I agree that the DE drivers have no business being on the track during the Timed Trials.

- It seems to me that the instructors are giving so much attention to DE that Novice Time Trial is being ignored.
* What about the drivers that ARE trying to get a license and WANT to become long-term driver?

- I personally miss the griding of the Time Trials.
- Time Trials used to be an EVENT, not just another practice session.
- It has been argued that we get more total track time without the true Time Trial event.
* More track time is always a good thing, but, the weekend of racing seems incomplete without the Time Trial Event.

Maybe it's just my child-like memories of important races and important drivers, being gridded and started at major events, eventually one diver was declared the best and put up on a pedestal. I'm not the kind of person that will ever have gobs of money and be able to enter the Indy 500 or a National SCCA event. The first time I drove, it was with the Alfa Club and we did get gridded, started and declared winners, just like the Big Boys, just like we were important and special too. I miss that little bit of being treated like an important race, a traditional Time Trials. I bet a lot of others would like to experience that special race feel too.

[Andrew]

Really good point; I agree with Racer Z. For TT, the timed session at the end of Sunday is the big reason you're there, and the payoff for your hard work over the weekend. The adrenaline level, expectations, etc. are all much higher. The gridding by time gives you the sense that this is competition, even if it's separated from other cars, and only against the clock. But the timed session used to feel special and this past weekend it was anticlimactic in a major way.

I hope the comp directors and others take all these comments in a constructive way. All of us who were affected have been thinking about this a lot and trying to give ideas and info that will help.

Andrew

[sidewaysalfa]

Thanks to all.
I am incorporating this stuff into the existing class outline that Tony Presto, Director of DE, put together.
The other, non DE, suggestions I will bring up at the Dec 6 annual Competition Board Meeting. You didn't think these events just happened on their own did you? There is at least 4 or 5 hours devoted each year to the intricate planning of a year's events and rules.

[Racer Z]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewaysalfa You didn't think these events just happened on their own did you?